Welcome to the serial talker True Crime podcast on your host Peter Von gomm. Does the name, Anna sorakan ring? Any bells? Do you remember a few years back in New York City? There was a fake heiress who was bilking restaurants, and people and hotels, out of enormous sums of money. Well, we're going to get into the deep down on this fraudster. She was a hip fraudster elegant. She had great taste in clothes and seemingly an endless supply of cash to buy the clothes. If you came here today for murder and other blood and gore, you ain't going to get it but you are going to get as always an awesome. True Crime Story. Let's get into
It all started with money money, money money. It's the ultimate bait for pretty much everything. It was the winter of 2017. In New York City and German fashionista. Anna delvey checked, into the stylish, New Boutique Hotel in SoHo truth. Told she wasn't German, nor was she had LV. She was the russian-born middle-class Anna sorakan. A brilliant con artist determined to defraud New York's wealthy Elite hotels and banks of enormous piles of cash.
Under the guise of a fake money Daris. She began her fraudster Crusade schmoozing with New York's social Elite selling them. On Grand plans for a members-only art Club. Foundation from there. The big light began to spin wildly and impressively out-of-control chartered flights with friends to Morocco for a mini vacations. Michelin-starred business. Lunches lavish birthday parties at some of New York's priciest eateries shop-till-you-drop shopping sprees with a girlfriend's. You name it. She did it, but the alligator arms sorakan. They never seem to have a credit card that worked for access to any of her many foreign bank account that supposedly we're stocked with millions of bucks, friends started to get suspicious, and eventually so did the DA's office.
The tousled hair dread, head slit a crisp $100 bill across the desk into the hands of nefertari Davis. The 25 year-old concierge working at the front at 11 Howard, a new Boutique Hotel in New York City. Soho District bespectacled in chunky. Black Saleen glasses, was looking for the best food in SoHo. The $100 was her tip for Insider info. This was the first of many such generous offerings to Davis and the rest of the staff at 11 Howard. Davis, actor named Anna delvey. She answered in a European accent, should be staying at the hotel for a month which Davis found surprising. Usually it was only celebrities who came for such long stretches. Dilwale was booked into a Howard Deluxe. One of the hotels mid-range options about $400 a night with ceramics.
Pictures on the walls and oversized Windows looking onto the bustling streets of Soho.
Over the next few weeks. Dehlvi stop by often to ask Davis's advice. Good restaurants, clothing boutiques clubs slipping are a hundred bucks each time till they already knew all the cool places to go. Not only that she knew the names of the bartenders and waiters and owners.
Some of the other Hotel employees found and a deeply annoying. Oddly ill-mannered for a rich person, please. And thank you. We're not in her vocabulary. Like she was some kind of old-fashioned. Princess could been plucked from an ancient European castle and deposited into the modern world. According to Anna. She came from modern-day Germany and her father, ran a business producing solar panels. The truth was, he was a truck driver and her mother ran a small convenience store and a quickly established herself. As one of 11 Howard's, most generous guests staff would fight to take her packages upstairs fight because they knew they'd get a handsome tip almost always a perfectly crisp. Hundred-dollar. Bill rock-paper-scissors was the usual way. They decided who get the privilege overtime. Delvia, got more and more comfortable in the hotel swanning around in sheer, Alexander.
Wearing leggings or occasionally a hotel robe. She ran the joint dilwale Was preparing to launch a business. A Soho club focused on art, with locations in La, London, Hong Kong, and Dubai, and Davis. Became her de facto secretary organizing business. Lunches and dinners, at high-end restaurants. Like, Seymour's and hotels on Le coucou on occasion when they showed up. While the concierge desk was busy. She would stand at the counter cool, accounting out bills until she got the concierge's attention. And although Davis had begun to think of Anna is not just a hotel guest but a friend, a real friend. She didn't hesitate to take the cash who can blame her. This was Manhattan in the 21st century and money is more powerful than ever. Rare is the city dweller who when presented with an opportunity for a sudden and unexpected influx of cash.
Doesn't grasp for it. Of course this money almost always comes with strings attached. Sometimes you can barely see the strings. Still everyone makes the reach because here it seemed money was the only one thing that no one could ever have enough of.
Pro stretch of time in New York. No, small amount of the cash in circulation was coming from. Anna delvey. She gave to everyone, even the Uber drivers got a good hundred bucks. Cash, David drop cash. Like she couldn't get rid of it. Fast enough for room was overflowing with shopping bags from acne and supreme. And in between meetings. She's invited Hotel friend, Davis to foot, massages cryotherapy, manicures and a favor to like, Wes Anderson, pink, Davis's boyfriend, didn't understand why she was spending so much time with that weird chick from work.
And I didn't understand why Davis had a boyfriend, but he was rich. She protested he'd promised to finance her movie dumped him delvey. Advised. I have more money. I will finance the movie.
Her new friend, she discovered belonged to a vast and glittering, Social Circle. Anna delvey seem to know everyone. She taken to hosting large dinners at 11 hours. Five star restaurant, Le coucou parties that were attended by CEOs artist athlete. Even celebrities one night, Macaulay Culkin popped in. He wasn't home alone, but rather being seen in one of delvie's grifter plays.
Despite her seemingly, nomadic living situation. Anna had long been a figure on the New York Social Scene. She was at all the best parties and always managed to connect with just the right people. But before her glittering life, in New York City, she was setting the stage in Paris deal. They had been an intern that European seems their magazine purple and appeared to be tight with the Magazine's. Editor-in-chief accompanying him, too many smashing events, the Frieze Art Fair Coachella, Art Basel soon, and it was everywhere. She managed to be in all the right places. It wasn't clear where exactly and it came from. She told people she was from cologne, but her German wasn't very good or what the source of her wealth was.
After an acquaintance introduced, her to the wealthy, Michael shufu. Who sang the extremely young? Founder of beijing's, M, Wood, Museum and a proposed. They go together to the Venice by Adele. When thought it was a little weird when Anna asked him to book the plane tickets and hotel on his credit card. It was all so strange. He noticed during their time there. But Anna only ever paid with cash and after they got back, she seemed to forget. She'd said she'd pay him back after a while when forgot about it, too. Because hey, when you're Filthy Rich, you can afford to be forgetful, which is maybe why no one thought much of the instances in which ended did things that seemed odd for a Richie Rich. Calling a friend to have her put in a taxi from the airport on her credit card or asking to sleep on someone's couch but moving into someone's apartment with the tacit agreement to pay rent and then
Doing it. Maybe she had so much money. She just lost track of it. The following January, and I hired a PR firm to put together a birthday party. At one of her favorite restaurant, sadelle's in Soho. It was a lot of very cool, very successful. People said who sang who Wala where Anna owed him money for their Venice trip remains mostly unconcerned about it, at least until the restaurant having seen Polaroid's of Wang and Anna at the party. On Instagram, sent him a message. A few days later. Asking, for Anna delvey, as contact info. She skipped out on paying the bill and it was a Whopper, the champagne flowed like wine as did the orders and entrees. Racking up a tally in the thousands playing then realized she was a fraudster.
As Anna balanced around the globe. There was some speculation as to where her means to do. This came from though. No one seemed to care that much. So long as the bills, got paid her circle of friends. All thought she had family. Money. Sylvie's, father was a diplomat to Russia, one friend, was sure, no, no, no, another insisted. He was an oil industry Titan. I think you have the wrong Anna. The millionaire Tech CEO was certain, her family was the delve, a family that is big and antiques in Germany that CEO met. Anna delvey through the boyfriend. She was running around with, for a while. A futurist, on the Ted Talk circuit. Who'd been profiled in the New Yorker for about two years. They've been kind of an unlikely team showing up in places, frequented by the itinerant. Wealthy living out of fancy hotels. In hosting seen Eve dinners where the futurist, talked up his app and die.
They spoke of the private club. She wanted to open. Once you turn 25 and came into her trust fund, then it was 2016. The futurist who's app never materialized move to the Emirates and Anna went to New York on her own determined to make her Arts Club a reality. Although she worried that the name she'd come up with the Anna delvey, a foundation or a DF was to narcissistic. Oh, come now, Anna delvey to narcissistic. Is that even possible early on in the ruse Anna and architect Ron Castellano, a friend of a friend from her purple magazine days had scouted a building on the Lower East Side, but it turned out to be too close to a school, to get a liquor license and soon. And I had shifted her aspirations uptown.
Through her connections. She'd befriended Gabriel calatrava. One of the sons of famed. Architect Santiago. His family's real estate advisory company. Calatrava Grace, that helped secure the lease. She informed people on the perfect space. 45,000 square feet occupying six floors of the historic church missions house, a landmark building on the corner of Park Avenue and 22nd. The heart of the club would be. She said a dynamic Visual Arts Center with a rotating array of pop-up shops curated by artist. Daniel arsham whom she knew from her purple days and exhibitions and installations from blue-chip artists like a Fisher Damien Hirst, Jeff, Koons to name a few for the inaugural event. And I told people the artist Christo at agreed to wrap the building raising a couple eyebrows at the grandiosity of this plan but to other
Hey, it's New York fucking City. The building's owner. Real estate developer ABY. Rosen was no stranger to the private club. Genre a few years earlier. He'd bought the Midtown building and opened the core club, which house an art collection. He also happen to own 11 Howard. These weren't accidental acquaintances and until they knew who to schmooze to her greatest benefit. She was brilliant.
Dilwale soon began meeting with big names in the food and beverage world to discuss possibilities in the space, but a project of this size required more Capital than even someone of an has apparently considerable resources could manage roughly 25 million dollars. She contacted a prominent Silicon Valley publicist inquiring as to whether they knew anyone who would be a good cultural fit for the project. But by Fall. Changed, her idea of private investors in part because she didn't want anyone telling her what to do to help secure a loan. One of Anna's Finance friends that put her in touch with Joel Cowan, best known as the prosecutor of Jordan Belfort. AKA The Wolf of Wall Street. He was very well connected with banks and matchmakers and had the Rapport she demanded.
She was synced with several large financial institutions, including La based City, National Bank, and Fortress Investment Group, in applications for multimillion-dollar loans. She explained that while her personal assets were quite substantial. They were located outside. The US noting that the loan she would receive would be fully secured by a letter of credit from the Swiss bank.
When the banker at City National ask to see the Swiss bank statement, he received a list of figures from a man named Peter henneke. Sent from an AOL email address. The banker was puzzled. Why would an employee of a Swiss bank conduct business via? An AOL email address flags were naturally raised but then lowered, Wendell, they explained. Peter is head of my family office. Okay, whatever you say Miss Dell VA with Dell VA in fundraising mode, the artist and celebrity friends at her dinners, were gradually supplanted by men with goyard briefcases and Rolexes. And who blow like that. Jay-Z lyric, that one dinner, the infamous Pharma, bro, Martin shkreli. Join The Fray dilwale introduced shkreli as a dear friend, although it was really the first and only time that ever met.
Corelli. A huge shyster would later be convicted of Securities fraud in a massive bust that night. He played a few tracks from The Carter 5, the delayed Lil Wayne album. He'd Acquired and was sworn to keep hush. All's fair in New York, fucking City, more questions and eyebrows began to be raised one evening Charley Rosen, son of a b Rosen, the owner of 11, Howard, Hotel, stopped in and got to talking to Davis. The concierge. She mentioned that she'd recently been to visit the Park Avenue building. That Anna delvey was leasing from his dad for an Arts Club.
Rosen looks confused. You didn't appear to have ever heard of Anna or her project soon. It was April and spring was poking. Its head through the gray, New York city sidewalks. The weather was getting warm enough to sip rozay on rooftops. One of delvie's favorite activities, and although the circle of Usual Suspects. She hung with was noticeably smaller. Delvey was too busy for parties. Anyway, she was busy building her business, but that was not completely going. According to plan the financier city National had turned down her loan request. A management decision was how delve a framed in the meantime and it was having cash flow problems and more crack began to appear one night and asked Davis the concierge out to dinner in SoHo.
At the end of the meal deal, vase card was declined. She handed the waiter a list of credit card numbers, written in a small leather-bound book. She had in her handbag, the waiter went back to his station and began answering the numbers 12, different sets. All bogus, all declined Davis, had to foot the bill until they paid her back. Triple the amount of the bill, a few days later $800, cash.
Soon after Davis's manager from 11, Howard called with a delicate issue. It seems they didn't have a credit card on file for Anna delvey because the hotel had been so knew when she arrived and because she was staying for such an unusually long time. And because she was a client of ABY Rosen and a very valued guest. It had agreed to accept a wire transfer, but a month-and-a-half later, no such transfer had arrived. And now Del Viejo the hotel, some $30,000 including charges from. Le coucou that she been billing to her room. Things were really beginning to stink when they stopped by the concierge desk. The next day Davis, took her aside and told her that management had said she needed to pay her bill or should be asked to leave.
And an audit Horizon. Scrutable behind her. Jackie, O sunglasses. There was a wire transfer on the way. She said it should arrive soon. Then several hours later and it came by the desk again. And with a mischievous smile on her face, told Davis to expect a package when it arrived. She opened it to find a case of 1975, Dom Perignon, with an has instructions to distribute it among the staff. How could they accept this? When she hasn't paid them? They went after her demanding. The money will be locked out, then. Something miraculous happened, Citibank send 11 Howard, a wire transfer on behalf of Miss Anna delvey for $30,000.
A few weeks later Delray was heading to Omaha to supposedly. See Warren Buffett Chagrin and Lee told 11, Howard staff. One of her Bankers had gotten her on the list of Berkshire. Hathaway's annual investment conference, and she booked a private jet to take her there.
But there was still a problem with her account at 11 Howard, despite being repeatedly asked by hotel management. She still hadn't given the hotel of working credit card and her charges. Continue to mount following through on their warning Hotel employees, change the code on the lock of Anna's room, and put her things in storage concierge. Davis texted Anna, in Omaha to deliver the bad news. She was hardly put out texting back about stumbling on a private dinner. Buffett had arranged rubbing elbows with a slew of VIP including Bill Gates.
When Anna got back to 11, Howard, she made her fiery known, she was going to purchase web, domains in all of the managers names that trick. She learned from shkreli. They're going to pay me one day. Also, she was moving out just as soon as she got back from Morocco inspired by a tweet from planet Kardashian delvey, reserved the $7,000, an iPad with a private Butler at an opulent Resort in Marrakesh. The same place Khloe Kardashian State at she and two. Girlfriends. Delray was paying for everything, at least that's what she said. Marrakesh, two days into the trip. One friend came down with a nasty case of food, poisoning, and return to New York early.
Several days later and I called the friend sobbing. The poor thing was alone at the Four Seasons in Casablanca. And there was a problem with her bank for credit cards weren't going through and the hotel was threatening to call the police.
The friend was torn on the one hand. This was not her problem. But she was a friend offering a prayer to the universe. She gave the hotel, her credit, card number when Anna came back on the phone. She told her, she was booking her a ticket back to New York, delvey snuffle, her things. Then she asked for one last. Hugely. Cheeky favor. Can you get me first class? What? The a few days later. A rented, silver Tesla Model X pulled up in front of 11. Howard, the phone rang to the concierge desk. Look out the window set, a familiar, German accent, the cars. Futuristic doors slowly raised up to reveal delvey. I'm here to get my shit.
She made good on their promise to leave 11 Howard. She was moving downtown to The Beekman hotel but moving didn't stem and as mounting troubles, not only did she owe the hotel. But over in London Mark kremers, the designer, she'd hired to do her branding work was getting antsy, the 16,000 pound Fianna had promised would arrive by wire almost a year before had yet to materialize. And now emails to Anna's financial advisor, the Swiss bank guy with the AOL email address Pete henneke. We're bouncing back Peter passed away last month and I replied please refrain from contacting or mentioning any communication with him going forward. Things were rapidly deteriorating for Annandale, VA in New York, 20 days into her. Stay The Beekman Hotel. Having realized it didn't have a working credit card on file and having not received the promised wire transfer.
For her balance of $11,000 locked and out of her room and confiscated her belongings a subsequent. Two-day stay at the W Hotel downtown and it in a similar fashion and by the beginning of July till they was effectively homeless wandering, the streets and threadbare Alexander Wang sportswear and a SORA. Kim was starting to sweat.
Late one night. She made her way to her friend's apartment and dialed are from outside. I'm right near your building. Do you think we could talk?
A friend was in the middle of a date and hesitant, but there was a desperate note and Anna's voice. She made her way to the lobby, where she found Anna in tears. She suggested, she call her family. She would, and I replied, but her parents were in Africa, and wanted to crash at her place for the night. The date, hit in the bedroom, while her friend made a bed for unexpected houseguest and offered her. A glass of water, the ever Chi-Chi and Uber high-maintenance delvey asked for Pellegrino Ball Z. Then she went to bed and slept the friends Spidey senses began to tingle. She texted the other friend that join them in Morocco. Who told her about what had really happened at the $7,000? A night Resort, the one Khloe Kardashian could afford Apparently after getting food poisoning and returning to New York, the credit card and I had used to book the hotel was found to be
Non-functional. And when Delray was unable to produce, a new form of payment and a pair of threatening goons appeared in the doorway. The friend was forced to put down the balance $62,000, more than she was paid in the year on the American Express card. She sometimes used for work expenses until they had promised her a wire transfer. But a month later all she received was $5,000 and her excuses have turned Kafkaesque the following morning, the friend Lantana, a clean, and flattering dress, and send her on her way with a free motivational speech. But when Anna walked out the door, she deliberately left. Her laptop behind as though, she'd be back for another night sleep. She wasn't having any of it. She deposited the computer at the front desk and texted LV that she could pick it up there.
That evening and I returned the friend, had instructed the doorman to tell her she was out after retrieving the laptop, till they ask for access to her friends, Sweet when he refused deal. They resolved to wait. It wasn't until after midnight the deal. They finally left with the laptop. Although she felt relieved lva had left it soon. Turned to worry. She started calling the hotels to see where she was staying. They all knew delvey.
She found out why later that month, when both The Beekman and the W Hotel filed charges against Anna delvey for theft of services. Wannabe socialite, busted for skipping out on pricey Hotel bills, blared the headline in the New York Post, which referenced an incident in which an attempted to leave the restaurant at Le Parker without paying why you making a big deal about this. She protested to police. Give me 5 minutes and I can get a friend to pay, but no friends arrived. It was all a misunderstanding. As Sylvia told Todd, spodek the criminal attorney. She hired to fight the misdemeanor charges.
Maybe the poised young woman in the Audrey Hepburn dress. Who'd cold called him on his cell phone repeatedly. Insisting. It was an emergency until he agreed to come into his office on a Saturday. Really was a wealthy German heiress other credit card, to truly gotten jammed up or perhaps, someone had taken away her trust fund just in case spodak whose everyday clientele includes grifters dog. Murderers Femme, fatales rapist and cyber criminals among other miscreants. Had her sign a lien on all of her asset one. That would ensure he got picked on her way out and asked a favor. I kind of need a place to stay. She said, spodak demurred. The last thing. His wife wanted was for him to bring his work home with him, especially a saucy, redhead that a load of peeps were gunning for.
Dilwale again phone, her Morocco trip friend, who refused to invite her to stay. But instead organized a powwow at a nearby restaurant during which she and the other built friend attempted, to get some answers. Why Anna had done what she done, who she really was. If she'd ever planned on paying anyone back till they hemmed and hawed, and disassembled, and prevaricated. And as the two women got increasingly Angry, Anna allowed to Fat, tears to roll. Down her cheeks. I'll have enough to pay everyone. She sniffed. Once I get the lease signed for Abby, Rose and building, Anna summoning. Her last shred of patients. The building has been rented by someone else. She held up her iPhone and showed her, the headline, photograph of Scott Signs, the lease for entire 45,000 square foot. At Abbey. Rosen's building till Bay's reply. That's fake news. Oh,
What tangled, webs, you woke as it turned out till vase Hotel bills were merely the first loose threads in a web of fraudulent Activity. One that began to unravel in November 2016. After she submitted documents claiming a net worth of 60 million lb in Swiss account to City National Bank, in pursuit of a 22 million dollar loan the following month. She submitted the same documents to Fortress in an attempt to secure a 25 to 35 million dollar loan after that bank asked her for $100,000 to perform due diligence. She convinced the representative at City National to extender $100,000 line of credit, which she then wire to Fortress, then apparently spooked by fortresses decision to send representatives to Switzerland. To personally check her assets. She withdrew her cell phone, the process halfway through wiring the remaining 55.
$2,000 to a Citibank account that she used for personal expenses, a shop till you drop spending free at several upmarket boutiques in the city. Then in April. She deposited $160,000 worth of bad checks into the same account managing to withdraw. $70,000 before they were returned, which is how she managed to pay off 11 Howard and ostensibly by the domain names of the managers of the hotel. She kept her promise in May till they convinced the company blade to Charter her. A $35,000 jet to Omaha by sending them a forge confirmation for a wire transfer from Deutsch, Deutsch from Deutsche Bank. It might have helped that she had the business card of the CEO. Yo, whom she met in passing at a Soho party, but who says he didn't actually know her at all, the two friends from the Moroccan trip, not wanting to leave, Anna homeless, after their intervention.
Summer before agreed to put her up at a hotel for one night. After having the hotel, remove the minibar and given strict instructions, not to allow her any room service. She subsequently checked into the Bowery hotel for two nights sending the hotel, a receipt for a wire transfer, from Deutsche Bank that never came Rachel Williams. One of the friends from the Morocco trip City National and others also received phony wire transfer receipt which a representative of the bank identified as forged and his family advisor. The late Pete henneke seems to have been a fictional character. Duh. Swiss bank people don't use AOL email addresses Gmail. Yes Hotmail. Perhaps but AOL.
His cell phone number belong to a now-defunct burner phone from a supermarket.
Later, in the summer, with her misdemeanor charges pending dilwale wasn't to be swayed. She deposited two bad checks into an account. At Signature Bank knitting her $8,200, which is how she managed to take. What she said was a planned trip to California where she was arrested in a sting operation outside of passages and addiction. Treatment facility, in Malibu. She was brought back to New York to face six. Counts of grand larceny and attempted grand larceny. In addition to his shopping list of theft of services, according to the indictment.
There were no designer labels in her bass jumpsuit, her $800 hair, highlights have faded and a $400 eyelash extensions. Long had fallen away. Life was rough at Rikers Island, where she awaited trial for her multiple offenses. She looked like a normal 27 year old girl, which is what she was on the surface, but she seemed to be taking it all in stride. Seeing her incarceration as a sociological experiment. She says, naturally she made friends. The murderers were the most interesting to her. She also warmed to a girl that was stealing other people's identities intrigued at learning how easy it was on December 18th, 2018 and a sorakan appeared in New York City, criminal court and rejected. A plea deal that offered three to nine years in prison.
Her defense attorney Todd, spodek the reins for a professional stylist to Source, outfits for her Court. Appearances, expressing the importance that Anna dress appropriately for the trial on the first day of the trial. Anasura can refuse to enter the courtroom because she didn't want to appear in her prison issued clothing and their civilian outfit for the day had not been pressed. Rightfully. The judge was Furious and ordered sorakan to appear.
In April of 2019, after deliberating, for two days, a jury found Anna sorakan. Guilty of eight charges including grand larceny. In the second degree, attempted grand larceny, and theft of services after serving. Just under two years of a 4 to 12 years sentence in state. Prison, Dennis orokin was released on February 11th 2021, but it seems she just couldn't follow the rules one month later in March. She was taken back into custody by ice for overstaying. Your Visa is currently being held in a New Jersey County, Jail, awaiting, deportation to Germany.
What was it about Anna delvey that opened. So many doors and wallets. She wasn't necessarily breathtakingly beautiful or super Charming. She wasn't even very nice. How did she manage to convince an enormous amount of cool successful people that she was something she clearly wasn't
Anna sorakan saw something, others didn't she looked at the sole of New York and Paris and Berlin and probably a load of other places yet to be revealed. And recognized that if you distract people with shiny stuff, with big wads of cash with the indicia wealth. If you show them the money, they'll be hypnotized unable to see or care about anything else. And for someone like Anna Sorkin delvey. It was so easy. And his dream was a beautiful dream, a New York dream. Like one of those nights that never seems to end and then the bill arrives.
I like a lot of people, I'm really fascinated with con artists. Like, what's more? Enticing to them, the Allure of easy cash or the high of the roofs. They're always really smart people and their genius at keeping track of the lies and excuses and the many strands of their webs of Deceit, add a link to an awesome Insider story about this written by Rachel Williams, who is one of the friends who went to Morocco with dilwale. It's so good. You got to read it. Check the link in the description. Well, thanks, as always for joining us here at the serial talker podcast. It's my pleasure. Please consider subscribing. And if you would like to help support the podcast, you could always buy me a cup of coffee. Those details are in the description that helps to pay for our web hosting and podcast hosting. If you have a compelling, true story that you
Take me to consider reading. Drop me an email. That information is also in the description and finally, why not share the serial talk or with your friends. If you have some friends, you think might like this true crime podcast, send it on to them. Thanks so much and we'll catch you next week, right here. Shall for now.