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I Am This Age podcast latest episode was on March 13, 2023

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Mar 13 · 38m From Out of Shape & Scared of Aging to Movement Coach & Anti-Ageism Advocate: David Wilson, 63

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Feb 27 · 47m From an Emotionally Abusive Partner to a Healthy Partner: Stephanie Greenwood, 43

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I Am This Age Feb 13 · 53m From Divorced and Sick to Healthy and Thriving: Marla Miller, 58

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Jan 30 · 36m From Unfit to Athlete in her late 40's & 50's: Eden Kendall, 56

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Jan 16 · 44m From Alcoholic to Sober and HAPPY in her late 40's & 50's: Joanne Irizarry, 59

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Jan 2 · 27m From Broken Heart to Married at 80: Janet Helfand, 80

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Dec 18 · 50m From Uncreative to Creativity Coach & Children's Book Author: Andrew Newman, 49

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Dec 4 · 40m From NPR and Married to Run Coach and Happily Divorced: Coach Christine Hetzel, 42

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I Am This Age Nov 20 · 38m From Nonprofit to Podcast Entrepreneur: Brian Biedenbach, 44

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Nov 6 · 1h From Married to Divorced to Married with Kids: Rebekah Ward, 44 Today Rebekah Ward talks all about her past relationships, how religion influenced them, and how she moved through divorce to a healthy, loving marriage with two kids in her early 40’s. Rebekah is hilarious, open, and full of personal insight. My goodness do I love this episode. You will laugh and cry (maybe not cry but you will laugh) and you will absolutely learn something about what loving relationships really look like. Enjoy today’s change story! www.iamthisage.com @iamthisage_podcast www.jellyfishindustries.com www.mollysider.com Transcript: Here's the thing. In my twenties and my thirties, I could not have been in the kind of romantic relationship I am in now. I couldn't because I hadn't yet done the work on myself that is required to be in that kind of relationship. I wanted to feel a deep connection with another human, and I wasn't going to settle for anything else, no matter how loud my biological clock ticked. But I also had no idea how to get that. I wanted to feel seen by a partner in such an intimate way that all my fears of being misunderstood by the rest of the world would fall away with the knowing that this one person whom I loved and respected and let's be honest, wanted to have sex with all the time, saw me for exactly me, and still wanted to have sex with me. It took years of learning and growing and experiencing disappointing relationships, and then years more of taking a very hard look in the mirror and recognizing and admitting the things about myself I wasn't particularly proud of, and then more years of untangling why I was doing those things. Figuring out why I really wanted this deep connection, unlearning unproductive habits, teaching myself new ways to be, and then committing to being those things. Now I get to continue learning and growing, but I get to do it in the kind of relationship I always wanted. So no, I couldn't have had this back then. I wasn't ready yet. But at 44, I am ready and I have it because I've lived those experiences and with every experience I learned more about the person I want to be, the kind of person I want to be in relationship with. And maybe most importantly, the belief that I am a worthy of the deep connection I always dreamed of. And if I learned anything from today's guess, it's that you have to believe in your worthiness enough to risk losing something great in order to gain what you most desire. Welcome back to another episode of I Am This Age a podcast proving it's never too late. You're never too old, so go do that thing you're always talking about. I'm Molly Cider, your host. And today's guest is Rebecca Ward, and we go deep into relationships, self-discovery, and what love really looks like. We talk extensively about how her experiences in and out of relationships in her twenties and thirties prepared her for getting married to her current husband just before her 39th birthday, and for having two kids in her forties. Rebecca is a blast. There's definitely some swearing in this episode. We laugh a lot and we laugh loudly, but mostly there's so much honesty and self-discovery, and I think it just might be one of my favorite episodes so far. So please enjoy Rebecca Ward. My name is Rebecca Ward. I am 44. I am a an artist. I act and direct and write. I am a wife and a mother of two children, a four year old and a one year old, and I am tired. So, and it is almost eight o'clock at night. Almost eight, which used to be when I would go out. It's just a perpetual, uh, exhaustion. But it'll pass. It'll pass. Yeah. Today we're gonna talk about love and relationships, how to get there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I, the long and windy road, the long and windy road, , the never ending, long and windy road. You had two big relationships as a young adult. The first was, um, at 19 years old when you were engaged to a man who was 31. Mm-hmm. . He was a member of a Christian organization that came to your high school, and that's how you met. Yes. , your community, Um, being small, religious. Mm-hmm. and in your words, undereducated. I would say so. Okay. Or underexposed under underexposed. Mm-hmm. . Okay. That's, that's a, a better, nicer way. Yeah. Um, so underexposed, um, they were very supportive of your relationship. Mm-hmm. , you were considered a rockstar couple , you were studying to be a missionary. Um, but you also had this deep urge to travel and he did not. So eventually you broke off the engagement after moving away to college, which was devastating to your relationship with your friends and your family back at home. You did eventually, um, rectify that family. Yeah. With my family and Yeah, and the friend and, and, and the friends I stayed close to, you know. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. And your second relationship was with a teacher at your college, . Um, he was two years older than you It's not, Look, we've all got these stories and you have to get through it in order to get to the place. Um, but yeah. This one, this one was, um, two years older than you. Yeah. You shared a love of theater. Mm-hmm. . He wasn't religious and you said he did things like drink martinis, , and listen to Led Zeppelin and vinyl, which I just love those details. Um, and for that, you found him fascinating. And the two of you got married. Mm-hmm. . And you were married for 10 years. Yes. You went through some hard life moments together. Mm-hmm. , you did some personal growth work. Mm-hmm. . And as you began to realize who each of you were as individuals, you also understood that you were no longer a fit for each other and you left that marriage. Yeah, I would say. That is the summation post leaving. I don't know that. I could have articulated it that clearly when I was leaving. I very much loved him. Uh, but we were really ill suited toward one another. Um, and we had gotten engaged so quickly after dating for five months. Had we spent more time in relationship together before we decided to spend eternity together, , then maybe we would've figured that out, um, before we, uh, you know, took vows. But we didn't, and we were young. And I think that in the end, we, we both have grown into much healthier, happier people outside of a marriage relationship with one. . And so you, you left the marriage and you were in your early thirties, correct? Yeah. It was just still a baby. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so the following , the following like six or so years, was you sort of getting to play, you got your first apartment by yourself, you dated, you traveled, you did plays, you made friends, you went to therapy, Yes. Lots of that. You had an explosion of self-discovery mm-hmm. . And, um, you, you said people were noticing that you were changing. Yes. Can you tell the story about what did the casting doctors say to you? Um, so I had been seen in this casting office in Chicago, you know, for several years while I was married. And then for, I don't know, the first several months post separation. . I had gone in for some auditions and after one of those auditions, the casting associate, not the director of the whole office, but an associate pulled me aside and said, Hey, I, I wanted to just ask you what's going on Is something different? You've changed, You're just, And I was like, Well, you know, I, I got divorced. And he was like, I wondered your name wasn't the same, you know? And I was like, Yeah. And . And I also said, I'm having a lot of sex. And he was like, Great . Yeah. Um, but he just said that I was happier and lighter. And, um, it's, it sounds to me like you had this very clear intention at that time to. Really figure out what you, what your values were. Mm. Um, and you, you said you started to do this by saying yes to everything. Yeah. And I find it, um, I find it really interesting because you came from this like tiny religious, conservative Yeah. Conservative community. Mm-hmm. with lots of rules, that are based on no Lots of nos. Lots of nos. And all of a sudden you're saying lots of yeses. You know, the world was literally your oyster and you were, it was like you were going to experience everything and then just narrow it down from there. Mm-hmm. , you were having like a complete reboot. I, I, it did feel that way and in some ways, to be honest, Yes. Reboot, but also I think it was a returning to my original self. Um, I think that my whole life, even when I was a little kid, I gravitated toward. The edges of things. Um, the edges. What does that mean? The people who were on the edge, the people who were maybe not the most popular. I I, I was generally friends with most people, but I was always intrigued by people who were pushing boundaries. But that does not garner you favor in the Southern methods denomination, um, or as a pastor's wife or, you know, like it's just very conservative. Fundamentalist Christianity is built on preserving the positions of the people who are in power, and they are able to maintain their power by keeping those who are not they in fear. Uh, be it fear of eternal damnation or. Judgment or sin or whatever you wanna say. And there's a long list of shit you are not supposed to do. Even when I was little, I can recall people who smoked a cigarette or when I took ballet, people who were gay and, and they were not evil, monstrous people that, uh, my religion growing up made them out to be. And so I think that that time in my life reboot in terms of rewriting the rules in my head of how I'm allowed to live and how I want to live. But also, uh, it was, it was a journey back to like the part of me earliest on that suspected from the get-go that there weren't as many. Delineations between people, all the different people that I met that, that it was made out to be. Yeah. That were all pretty much the same. Yeah, we're a lot closer and, you know, gay or not gay, um, Catholic or not, Like being Catholic was horrible where I grew up in the church I grew up, they thought if you were, if you were Catholic, if you were part of a cult. And I was like, and then I grew up and I was like, what? Like if you practiced yoga or meditation, you were, you were getting too close to the devil. Like just some really whacked out stuff. So it was a very, it was a very tiny world that they gave you in which to operate. And I never liked that. I never, never, never, never did I have had a voracious appetite always for everything that's out there. And, and if you wanna get really like, super spiritual about it, I have. Found it to be true that the more I experience and the more people I know and the, the more things I eat and the more things I get to do well, the better. I know God anyway, cuz it's all the same. Yeah. I don't really think God and limits actually go together. Can you give us a little snippet of what that time period look like for you, Um, you're so good at storytelling story. Uh, ok, sure. Um, I've made it very clear that I grew up in a conservative culture that was heavily religious and patriarchal and that also meant any sexuality was completely stamped out and, and forbidden because, you know, it's a gateway to you doing all kinds of things that would take you away from the Lord, whatever. I did wait to have sex until I got married, and my husband at the time was the only person I'd had sex with. So when that relationship was over, I absolutely was like, Well, now I know what I'm doing, . Um, which, you know, for some people, I, I imagine there's a wide range of ways that people would choose to, uh, live out that, that like time of exploration. For me, it primarily meant like saying yes to dates and for the first time in my life, a couple, one night nightstand and . A lot of the time it, I mean, I guess what I should say is it didn't take long for me to realize, maybe it was after three or four partners that I was like, A lot of this is the same , right? Like it's not, I'm anyb blowing experiences . Um, and I that, that in itself I was like, you know, but in particular the way I was operating for a snapshot of a moment, I was staying at this extended ta stay place where they put you up when you're an out of town actor, but you know, anybody can stay there. It's also a hotel. And I had either gotten home that, I can't even remember what time of day it was, but, um, either from rehearsal in the afternoon or in the evening after a show, I don't recall. And I was at the desk and I don't know if I was getting mail or something and I saw a man in the lobby. Sort of standing there and then get into an elevator. And we made eye contact and he was extremely handsome. There was this just sort of like charge, like electric charge. And I just, you know, and he got in the elevator and that was that. Um, but I finished my business, either got a pa, I don't know what it was, package or something anyway, and I went to hit the up button on the elevator and it opened and he was still in there. So he had either come back down or, I don't know. So I, he looked at me and I looked at him and I smiled and I got in the elevator. There was no one else in the elevator and he didn't speak English and he sort of noded and said hello or something. And then he just got really close to me and then we kissed and made out in the elevator until he came Oh my God. To his floor. I know, I know. I sound like I'm trying not to slut shame myself. Um, no, this is an amazing story. He, it was only like four floors up. We got to his floor and he kind of noded and like I said, he didn't speak English, but said, Do you wanna come in? And I, and I just said, No, I don't. I was fine and I didn't wanna do anything that I didn't feel safe with. Like, I was like, I don't really know this person. But I didn't feel unsafe in that moment in the elevator with him. And he was very like, Okay. And said something like Bella or beautiful or something like that. And that was that. And I never saw that person again. Wow. That's exciting. It was a moment where I just remember thinking, I'm going to, I'm gonna say yes to this moment and this instinct. And I did. And I was also really paying attention to my feelings. Uh, I want to, I feel like I should preface this like warning label. I had been spending an a solid year and a half up to that point in therapy, meditating, taking an antidepressant, uh, really working on self care and healing because when I made the decision to leave my ex-husband, I wanted to be able to trust that decision and the place from which I made it. And so I also felt really confident post separation o of what I was exploring and what I was doing. I, I didn't feel like I was. Like rebounding or anything. It wasn't like that. It was, it was a, a very intentional journey of what makes me happy, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. I wasn't always right. Right. Like there was a , there was a one night stand or a good guy that I went on a few dates with, and he totally ghosted me and totally got caught . And we had mutual friends. Oh, yeah. And I, I remember being 100% sort of publicly rejected and walking back to my car after the show and just breathing and thinking, Okay, okay, this is so, huh. So this is what it's like as an adult. You know, you, you choose to operate at this level and share yourself at this level. And it does not equal commitment or relationship. And I knew that cerebrally, but that was the first. That I'd actually experienced it and, and one potential outcome of my choices. It wasn't devastating or anything like that. It was just a, a, what's the word? Like, I was rebuffed. I was, I had very, he very clearly was like, Yeah, I'm done now. And I was like there. And then now I've like, ok, ok. Pick myself up. And, you know, so a lot of the lessons that I feel like many people get when they're in their early to mid twenties, I wasn't having until a decade later. Yeah. Um, and I was giving myself, for the first time ever in my life, permission to be a sexual person, to follow my instincts, to make mistakes, and to do that shame and judgment. That's amazing. Just for the record, like I feel like I was still doing that in my thirties. I definitely was through my thirties. Like I think I was Sure I was, I've had those experiences even in my early, like in my forties . Yeah. Yes. I think as long as we are trying to learn who we are, you're gonna find these things out one way or the other. Yeah. And relationships with other people are, are our fastest teachers. Yes, they are. And also, but also like, we have to be willing to, you know, really look at ourselves and the role that we play in the relationship. Sure. And, and how we're contributing to whatever the thing is that we have experienced. Even if it's the ghosting, like, oh, I could tell you how I contributed to it. Oh, you're gonna move here. You're gonna move here from Brooklyn. Oh, that's great. Right. . Right. So the girl who had been in a relationship for 10 years and one other relationship before that maybe was not so great at one night stand. Right. And the thing is, is that when we're not willing to actually look at how we're contributing to these circumstances, we never learn. And I know of plenty of people who are still dealing with this in their seventies. Yes. And it's so hard. My parents, who I love deeply have an extremely dysfunctional marriage and they've been married for 48 years and, and it is a wreck. And they've spent that much time together without, yet finding a way, um, for each of them to thrive. You know? And I don't really understand all of the things that contribute to a person's inability to move forward. I imagine that it is so specific. Um, and I know that, you know, past traumas and a mil and access to healthcare and resources, there's so many things that go into it. Our generation, Being able to go to a therapist and or be on an antidepressant without nearly the stigma that our parents had, right? Like, that's a massive leap forward. Um, so there are lots of reasons, but you won't, you won't move forward. If you can't take responsibility for your own shit, you just won't truth, you know? Not that it's easy to do. It is not easy. It's, it's not easy. It's just about the hardest thing, but it gets easier the more you do it. It really does. It's never easy, but it gets easier, I think. But it does get easier because the work becomes more familiar. It's not as, as scary a place as the first time you choose to be so vulnerable to show either someone else or just be honest with yourself about those, those parts of yourself that you, you're embarrassed of or that are dark or that are, you know, have been hurtful or harmful to someone else. But then, Like anything, the more you do it, the more you practice being authentic, the less grip that it has on you and, and you begin to trust the outcome of, of that behavior. Where before it was this big, scary unknown thing and the risk was so huge. But the more you do it, the more you know ultimately what lies on the other side. Yeah. Is where you wanna be. Yeah. And that you'll be okay. You won't die from it. And that everyone else is just as scared to do the same thing and everyone else is hiding or gripping to some similar insecurity or fear. And the more that you just face it and let it out and talk about it, the more you realize we're all pretty similar. Yes. Uh, you know, I think for me, my parents' unhappiness has been a big motivating factor in my own life to not end up in that place and that. Impetus, Right. That, that was my compass of like, well then that means I'm number one. I'm not gonna stay in a miserable marriage. Number two, I've gotta get help for the shit that that is mine. And, and number three, I, I'm gonna have to start tearing apart some of this stuff that I, I've been taught and that we've grown up in that is keeping us broken and tied down. And, and that means walking away from like, Huh. Big existential life defining, you know, not qualities, but like beliefs and, and, and be trusting that I'll be able to withstand the rejection and the disappointment, or, and there was that, you know, from my mom and dad. And then eventually they came around because they love us. They love my sister and I And was it easy at first? Oh my God, no. It was horrible. It was horrible. And I knew that they were disappointed, maybe even embarrassed of me. But in the end, they, they lovingly said, Yeah, oh, we were really wrong. Wow. But yeah, so then through all of that saying yes and exploration, and it was a, it feels like a real messy time. It was a messy, exciting, maybe I started to say reckless, so it probably was in certain moments, reckless maybe that I, because I was so intent unlike, what is this? What is this? I was not fit for up to be a partner to another person at that time. Right. Or a long term partner by any means. So that's what I mean, reckless, Um, because I was too, I was, I was too ready to just move around. And from thing to thing and thing, I didn't, I did not want any other relationship after. 10 years married and 12 years together. And it was so hard and so sad to disentangle myself from that, that I was like, Nope, , let's just play for a while. Yeah. Yeah. And you did, and then you met Kyle and then, Then I met my husband, my, now my number two husband, he always says two and not through. And I'm like, Yes, I'm through . But I would not say, I would not say till death do us part in our vows because I no longer believe in that. Not that I don't believe in death, I do, but what I'm saying is I don't believe you have to promise someone your whole fucking life, cuz nobody knows that. Yeah. So, yes. Okay. So you met, so you, so you met Kyle. Yeah. What, what did you think of Kyle when you first met him? I thought that he was a very. Labrador of a person, just so much. He was so much, and there were so many emojis and exclamation points, and he, he was really happy and I, I felt like Kyle was a lot. It was, he, he was so laser focused on me, which in some ways was amazing. Yeah. I'd never had someone who was like, You, you're it , you know? I mean, I guess, but not, not in that way. Or maybe I, What I should say is I'd never had someone who was the type of person Kyle was, say something like that. The people who had said it before. Were people who were emotionally unavailable. So when they would say, You, you're it, they, it would be like half of a piece of toast. And I'd be like, Thank you, . Kyle said, You're, it's like, Here is past of Whole Foods. He's like, You done it all. Um, I and I, it was so much, it was so much and a lot, and he was very different than any person I had ever, ever dated. And I was very skeptical. . So skeptical. There was not a dark or brooding. Shred in his entire existence. And that was what I generally was attracted to, was like these, you know, injured, hurt, addict, sexy men. Even if I didn't know that about them, if I was drawn to them nine times outta 10, that, that, that was all in the mix somewhere. Um, Kyle was none of those things. And so the Compass, one of my friends told me, Girl, your picker is broken. So my broken picker was like, Nah, , no thanks. Woo. Where were you in your journey of figuring yourself out at this point, would you say? Um, I was still, I was still dating around. Mm-hmm. . Um, I had had one like longer term relationship right after I had left my husband. Um, and I had ended that relationship. Um, Because that person had a significant drinking problem. I had had no intention of settling down really with any person. But I do think, I do think I did eventually wanna find another partner, but I didn't wanna get married again at all. Why , Why do you, why did you hang out with Kyle? Kyle is like magic. There's no other person in my life that I have ever connected with in the way that I connect to Kyle. He makes me laugh. And it is a, it is a, an, uh, it throws me off balance every time I get, It's a silly way to say it, but I get tickled, right? Like he's still to this day will. Catch, like say things and it catches me off guard. And I am delighted by him. And even though he was nerdy and, um, you know, like I mentioned before, like more, definitely more clean cut and just not, like I said, not anything like the guy that, that guys that I had normally gone for something about him when I was around him, I was relaxed. Mm. And I That's huge. Yeah. I relaxed and I had so much fun and. A, a girlfriend of mine at the time, I remember saying to her like, I don't know. Right? Like, I don't know if he's gonna be alpha enough for me. Like, God, what a conti thing to say. But that is what I said by all means. I was not like fully realized as a person that Jesus at that point in time, and we probably aren't ever, but I didn't know if our chemistry was gonna be enough or if he was gonna be, you know, exciting enough for me or whatever. I actually, this is something that I wanted to talk about because I think we get. So used to the like excitement, like the artists who are, you know, intense and brooding and dangerous and sexy and the excitement and danger of not knowing what's next. Do they love me? Are they playing games with me? Will I ever see them again? You know? Yeah. And when and how. And then you see them again and it's like you feel like you are everything in the earth. Sure. It's a horrible cycle. Yeah. Yeah. It's a cycle. And then, but then it's like that that anxiousness, that a accompanies like the volatility of those types of relationships I think is what we often mistake for chemistry. Like we think that's true. The excitement, We think it's excitement. We think it's attraction, but it's really anxiety. And so then when we meet someone's, and it's, yes, it's from a trauma childhood, a hundred percent. And then when we meet someone romantically who like doesn't. Make us feel those same ups and downs, then we are in this position where we're like, I don't know, like he's great, but I feel like something's missing. Or like, there's no chemistry. And it's like, No, what we're missing is the instability that we are so accustomed to, but we, we, we interpret his chemistry. Yep, Yep. It's, I mean, I don't even think that I really, I really understood all of that, but you just spoke about until, oh, Jesus, I don't know, maybe four or five years, maybe even. I'm not even sure I understood it when I married Kyle. I don't, I'm not sure I could have articulated it that well. Um, I don't think I understood this until, honestly, just a few months ago, , you know, Kyle was stable and safe and probably the biggest difference between him and and everyone else in my life up to that point is that Kyle put all his cards on the table right at the get go and. I think that number one, I didn't know what to do with all that. And number two, the allure of like, who is this person? Or is this, you know, like, like what we talked about with a person who is not fully invested. That was what my normal was. And that there's part of a chase, right? And, uh, you, you learn to evaluate your own self worth with whether or not you succeed in getting this person's attention. Slash commitment a thousand percent, right? Yeah. And so where's the thrill that you're used to with a person who's like, Hey, I'm here all, every bit of me. Let's do this all the time. And you're like, Um, but I had a very, that very good friend that I was talking about, she said, you know, well, , if there's anything at all that you like about him, go on another date. Just go on a date, another date until you are sure that no. Okay. I know, and I could not deny that every time we did anything, I never felt better. I never once had a bad time even, even on like, you know, like awkward dates or whatever, which are inevitable. He still , he still always managed to just, I don't know, be he's, Kyle is exactly who he is. He, there's no pretense with him and he, he is willing to be in his own life a hundred percent and be present and answer questions and. I had never had that before with a person, so it felt overwhelming. Mm-hmm. . But it was also this new land. It it was safe. It was a place to be stable. Yeah. And I could relax. I, I don't know that I ever had relaxed in a relationship before, ever. The, And it built off of that. Right. And I, I think that number one, he was tremendously patient. And, uh, number two, he gave me space when I asked for space. And I was not ready when I met him to be his girlfriend at all. And I said that, and. He wanted to , he was, I think what he said was, I, this is like two or three months after we'd gone out on our first date or something, and he was like, I wanna date you. I wanna date this shit outta you, . And I said, Do you so cute? Do you mean like exclusively? And he was like, Yes, Rebecca, yes. And I was like, No, I can't, I can't do that. I'm not, I'm not ready for that. Um, if it makes you feel any better, you're in first place. And, but I can't, He says, he said later, he was like, That's all I needed to hear. I knew, like, he was like, I could see, he was like, The guys you dated that were terrible people, , he like, knew eventually come to senses. Wow. But I did, I did have to just take my time. And I, I think about, I moved to LA during that time. I lived by myself during that time and we did, We dated other people. Right? I did. Yeah. And not very many, like one or two guys and I not for very long. And I was clear with Kyle. I told him I'm, I'm gonna date people when I go out there. I, you know, if I, if I decide to sleep with anybody else but you, I'll let you know because I feel like that is, you know, respectful practice. But I really think that I was healing as a person and that the time I was taking with myself and making my own choices and living my own life allowed me to slowly see Kyle for the gift that he really was. Um, and as I was in LA in a new place, still being drawn towards the same old type of person at the same time, I was disappointed in them, which had never happened before. Ah, that's interesting. I was like, one guy in particular, I remember. I, I, we'd been making out or something and, and I was like, Are you, I've got a question for you. You know how you are when you're dumb and dating somebody at the beginning. And I was like, Are you ever silly? Do you ever, you know, are you, would you ever call yourself a silly person? And he was like, No, no, never. Oh, bored. And I, yeah, I felt my stomach kind of sink. And what I realized was, Oh, I'm valuing different things now. Like the, the love and delight and, and just spontaneity and silliness that comes with Kyle that I really like. I like it in my life and I like it as a part of me. I don't wanna date somebody who doesn't have that, and that would never have been a quality that was important to me a couple years prior. But I, I don't think I, I would've been able to appreciate it any earlier in life than I did. You know, That's why I say, I, I said yes to Kyle when he when he said, I'll go to the movies with you. Uh, because I had made a commitment to saying yes, not because I looked at him and was like, Oh yeah, hey. Right. That was not it. I remember thinking like, Okay, and I thought he might be gay, and I was like, Maybe you'll be my new gay friend that I go to movies with. Like, I had no idea what I was getting into at all with this person, and it changed my entire life and is the very, the very best thing that has ever happened to me. So, you know, it's him and him knowing himself and giving me space to know myself. When was the point or what was the point where you understood that you were ready to commit fully to Kyle? It's, it's, it was around that same time I was talking about that guy and I, I called my sister because Kyle, we'd been dating now for a year and a half and I still wouldn't. Commit to being, I hated this, but I was like, I'm, I'm not gonna be your girlfriend. I was married for a decade, for Christ's sake. I don't wanna be somebody's girlfriend. Right? Like, that just sounds so dumb. But I kept calling him the guy I'm seeing . And he was like, Yeah, that's really not, Yeah, that's so clearly. I had some hangups. Um, but I called my sister and I was like, I don't know Laura. Like, I like this guy. And he's, you know, the chemistry is just really exciting, but I kind of also feel like we might just burn each other out and, you know, but then I asked him, Is he silly? And he was like, No. And like, being silly was some kind of like disease or something. And I, and then Kyle and she, and she said to me, and Becky is what I was called growing up, by the way. So she was like, Becky, look, , there will always be more guys. Okay, Always. But Kyle is not gonna wait on you forever. So you need to just go ahead and decide. , either you're gonna be in a relationship with him and figure out if it works or just stop. And in that moment that sounded very clear to me and made sense. And I was like, Yeah, actually I need to stop waiting to, because I'm scared to see if it will be enough and I need to figure out if it will be or not. And um, so I think it was maybe two days later that he had already, we'd already had a trip planned for him to fly to LA and I told him, Yeah, okay, I want to do this and I wanna see what that means for me. And then we've been together ever since. So, , you took a lot of risks with Kyle, meaning I did like you moved to California and dating other people, and all of the things you just described, you mentioned to me. Phone call that you felt like you had or you had to be okay with losing Kyle. Yes. In order to arrive at a place of trust in yourself. That is hundred percent true. It seems like you always had a lot of trust in yourself, like even from early on, I mean, breaking off your engagement and mm-hmm. leaving your family and your religion and Yeah. Leaving a marriage. Like how do you consistently show up for yourself and have your own back in these moments of hard decisions and moments when maybe other people you're close with think you're making mistake? Um, thank you for saying that. I am not a person who enjoys dissonance or conflict. It's necessary. I've spent a lot of time in therapy learning that you can hold two opposing things at the same time, and they can both very much be true. Um, it is an uncomfortable place for me when something feels wrong inside of me or unjust. It is almost like I cannot even swallow. I can't, My chest gets too tight. I, I don't feel like I can move forward or take another step until I am righted within myself. In the instance when I was young, really young and engaged, I didn't have any good reason to. To break off that engagement except that I didn't want to get married. Well, that right there is a good enough reason, right? But not when you've already bought a wedding dress and you have bridesmaids dresses and you've got the photographer and you've been dating for two years, and you're gonna be missionaries together for the glory of the Lord and da da da. There was a whole lot invested in this relationship and how it appeared, but something didn't feel good and enough to where I was like having panic attacks and I, I was really sick to my stomach a lot of the time, and I, I just couldn't do it. And I think for me, at least in the two relationships before Kyle, I reached such a pro, sadly, a profoundly dark place in my life that I didn't want. I just, that's wasn't what I wanted my fucking life to be like. I. I did not want to stay in West Virginia. I love West Virginia. I love my, my parents and my friends in my home. And, but I, I have always wanted to experience everything I get my hands on. And, um, I think the deepest part of me knew that that wasn't gonna happen in that relationship. And, and, and I got, I, I, like, I could go into it further, but I got really sick. I weighed 103 pounds. I couldn't eat. I was having panic attacks. It's the first time I started seeing a therapist. And it was because I was trying to force myself into this idea of what was right and good and holy and, you know, and it wasn't for me. And then when it came to leaving my marriage, I was miserable. I was, I was just so fucked up and broken and sad from this square peg, round hole arrangement. And it took so much undoing because I grew up in a place of marriages forever. You don't get divorced. Not unless he's hitting you, right. And even then you might not. And he was a very, he was a good man, quote unquote, right? So I think it'd be nice to say that I knew some secret way to be in tune with myself, but actually I just was so god damn miserable both times that I couldn't keep doing it. And. You know, I suppose there are, there are a couple things, right? So as I'm talking this out, we talked about verbal processing and what do you learn? Mm-hmm. . Um, first one, first engagement. No, I knew I didn't wanna stay at home. That was not my plan. So that was a deep core value in me. Whether I had defined it that way or not. Second marriage was kids. Um, that's probably what did it. Uh, we both wanted kids very much, but we were a mess. My first husband and an I and I wa I was not going to do to my children. What was done to me firmly, firmly made that promise. And so for three years, every New Year's Eve, we made a promise. This is the year we'll get it together. This is the year we'll get our shit together and we'll try for a family. And, and we never could. , and I very, very clearly remember that final New Year's Eve just being out of my body, just thinking like this is done. How much more time am I gonna waste? How much more time am I gonna waste? Because I wanted kids and I wanted them, but I wanted to give them what I didn't have. So I trusted those deep, deep things in myself that were calling out to me. And I don't know if that's helpful to anybody else who's trying to figure it out or not, but that's how it helped. I mean, that's how it felt to me. Yeah. And that's what, That's why Kyle, I think I, I've said before, the way he is, the humor that. It's like he has some sort of special key to a part of me that unlocked this. Like, Oh, right. Things are not so fucking hard. They're not actually, they can be really fun and really easy. And that's not to say that there weren't times of tension, like you mentioned. Like I did have to be willing to let Kyle go. I didn't know from the get go, I knew more, Oh, I still need space here. No, I'm not ready to fucking put a ring on my finger. No. Like things like that that I had to be willing to say. And I guess you, you asked how did I know I'd come that far? At that point, I was in my late thirties and I was like, Nah, this has been working for me. Right. This listening and trusting, so I'm just gonna keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you wanted ultimately, it sounds like. Yeah. I, I was so tired of being afraid. Yeah. Afraid that I was making the wrong choice. Afraid that I was making God mad, afraid that I was gonna ruin my life, afraid that, whatever, you know, And I just refused to be afraid anymore. And, and that meant, that actually just meant doing what I wanted to do and facing the consequences, but knowing that I'd be okay. Yeah. Okay. So you guys got married? ? We did He wore me down. Um, you know, I, we dated for three years before we got married. Much more than five months. He is six and a half years younger than me and had never been married. Yeah. He is younger than me. I didn't, We dated for three years and he moved to LA and, you know, we had this glorious. Grand time and wonderful adventure there. And, um, I wasn't sure that I wanted to get married again because it ended, it had, it was now tied to so much sadness. The idea of it, like my parents' marriage was always fucked, but then my own marriage that I really, really wanted to work did not. And so I, I just really wanted nothing to do with it. And then he like eased me into the conversation and he goes, Well, what if we just had a small, like, private ceremony, not even legal, just in the backyard with close friends. And then he was like, Well, I kind of feel like if we're gonna have kids, we should get married. And then also, my husband's mother had cancer and, and Kyle had never been married. And I just sort, it all just sort of went away and I was like, Fuck it. He can, you know, he wants this, right? Like it's a dream of his, and I'm sure, and I know his mother wanted him to have that experience. And so I was like, whatever , I'll just, I'll just it up. But they, I also, like, I didn't change my name and um, I said, No, I'm not saying till death do you part, like that's, I don't you Kyle, you know that? I don't believe that anything. We just don't know what the future holds. Yeah. Um, and he was like, Great, great, great. I love all of it. He goes, Just let me project the bat signal when we exit after we're married. Can I do that? What? I was like, I know, I forgot that I didn't tell you this. My husband loves Batman. Oh my God, this is amazing. Go on. Is it, is it, Well, Molly, is it, I dunno. Was with a deep undying devotion and the church took down. Is it pyramids or estimates, the like stuff that hangs at the front big wall of the church and one of our friends got a Batman gobo and a big light from one of the studios and we projected the bat signal and played the Danny Elfman Batman thing when we exited the church. Yeah. So he owes me forever. So it might not be until death do you part, but he owes you till death to part was right. Like, and everybody knows this about Kyle, like here's how deep his love goes for Batman. Mm-hmm not only does he have a Batman tattoo, he's got tons of Batman everything. My husband dressed up as Batman and went to Lurie Children's Hospital of his own accord. He knew someone there and would go and talk to the kid, like just to think. He didn't tell people he was doing it. It was just a thing he. That's the man I'm married. I , I, yeah. Adore him. He's amazing. I've only met him once very, very briefly. hardly talked to him at all, but he was a wonderful human being. What a guy. What a guy. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, like in the end I'm always like, Okay, fine. Whatever. . Yeah, yeah. Right, Because he's, because he's great. So, and I wanna be real clear, we fight, Okay. Everybody, we fight. I have said horrible things to him. He has said horrible things to me. Every, We have two children now. We're so fucking tired. We barely have sex like that. You know, I, I wanna be really honest. Everything is not like glorious and perfect. Yeah. But I love him. I love him, and he is my partner and. We are, we are honest with each other and we are kind to each other more than we are not. And that is, I I, I didn't know that partnership could be like this. We work really hard on ourselves to bring our best selves to this partnership and now to our kids, like we're in it to win it with these babies. They are, they are our everything. So that means you don't fuck around. Right. It's their life. Yeah. It's their life and you are their safe space. So tell me what part of you, if any, feels settled. Mm-hmm. . And what part of you, if any, feels wanting for more still settled. I, I mean, I got my family, right? I got a partner that I love and I. We did ended up having to do ivf. It was a whole thing, but we got two kids. Um, that is settled sometimes. I can't believe that I ended up with this fairy tale of, of things being as good as they are unsettled. It's a given and take. Right? I miss traveling. I miss the freedom of. Kids mostly have hampered that, but like, let's go get a cocktail and get wasted . Right? That doesn't happen anymore. You've wrecked, you wrecked for two days now and you can't parent like that. Spirit of full disclosure, Kyle and I talked like, would we ever be in an open relationship? Is that something that we would ever consider? And I was like, Yeah, I'd consider it. And he was like, No, I would not consider it. . Which probably comes as a surprise to absolutely know one. Do you, do you dress up as Catwoman for him? ? Oh yeah. Molly, have I have? Uh, yeah, it's photo evidence nonsense. Oh my God. Thank you for answering that very hard question. Um, I'm, well I guess I'll just ask you this because we talked about it earlier. What, through this conversation, what have you learned about yourself? Um, I think. The thing that sticks out and you ask me like, how have you always trusted yourself? I, I have a lot of thought swirling around that. Um, because I feel for so long that I didn't trust myself. In fact, I was taught not to trust myself. What I was taught is that we are inherently evil and that our desires are always gonna be sinful. And that what you have to do is learn what God wants for your life and learn what, what God's path is. And that is so profoundly damaging to a human being to say, No, don't trust yourself cuz what you want is probably wrong. And I think that's why I stayed in certain situations for so long. , even though I knew I didn't like it, I didn't know how to justify my own feelings. So maybe just remembering that I am capable of more than I really, I don't ever view myself the way that you described just now. Um, I always feel a lot more scared and fragile and bruised than I guess it appears. Right. And trying to bring those two things together, right. What I'm capable of and what I've been through. And then also recognizing that sometimes I still a am am as lost as the next person, you know, And that you'll get through that. Yeah. Cuz you have before. Sure. Sure. Yes. . Yes. And when it feels like shit, just know that this is just the time for feeling like shit. You know? I think I mentioned this to you in one of our phone calls, but it stuck with me and it stuck with me when I was going through my divorce. But, um, when a caterpillar goes into its cocoon, it actually liquefies its whole body does before it reemerges as a butterfly, it literally turns to goo its whole self before the metamorphosis. Metamorphosis. And I forget which author, you know, wrote about that, but, but that there are times in our lives when we are goo and you are gonna feel like goo, like shit, like just a, a mess, a glob of a human. And that's, I think I'm in that phase being a parent of two young children. You know, mid post pan Pandemic pandemic. Where are we at now? Who the fuck knows? Um, 44 years old in my career where the value is on 24 year olds, right? Like there's a lot of my aging parents there. There's a lot of new territory for me right now. Um, and I am, like I said, I am tired. Um, and just remembering that feeling like this is, is literally an essential, if not the most essential part of the transformation. So, Well said. Someone else said it, but I'll repeat it. , No. Whatever. I think about it a lot though. I'm like, Oh, I'm due right now. I'm, I'm, I'm a mess right now. And that is just, I always ask people to introduce themselves in the, in the beginning, however you introduce yourselves. And I'm curious, without using titles such as actor, wife, or mother or whatever, how would you define your identity? I am Rebecca Ward, A lover of people and words, and tastes and sounds and smells. I cannot wait for every new adventure. I, I always used to say that you can't have, that You can have everything. Yes, you can. You may not be able to have it all at the same time, but you can have everything. I don't like it when people tell me no. So . Okay, good. I'm glad that you said that. Sure you can. Thank you. Thank you. I needed to hear that good. Yeah. I mean, you know, it, it, there's no limitations. What is it that I think Deepak Chopra always talks about the field of limitless possibilities. We live in a field of limitless possibilities. Yes. I, I like just thinking about that and then taking a deep breath. There's something inherently hopeful that goes along with that statement, you know? Yes. I love that. I feel like that's the, the whole point and theme of this entire podcast. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, things will come out of the woodwork that you never expected. My nickname for Kyle is Left Field because that's exactly where he came from. Thank you to David Ben Perra for Sound Engineering. Dan Daven for music, David Harper for artwork. I'm Molly Cider. I am This age is produced by Jellyfish Industries. And hey, if you're loving these episodes, don't forget to rate review, and most importantly, share with everyone you know. We need help growing this show so we can keep sharing stories. If you have an idea for a podcast and need someone to produce it for you, email info@jellyfishindustries.com, or if you're struggling in your next life journey and you need support, contact molly@jellyfishindustries.com for a free discovery coaching call. See you all next time.

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Oct 30 · 36m Part 2 - From Employee to Employer: Elaine Appleton Grant, 60 Bonus Episode Part 2 with Elaine Appleton Grant! Today Elaine talks about her change journey from working in public radio and at the Wondery network to starting her own podcast production company called Podcast Allies at the age of 57. To my surprise and Elaine’s credit, she barely ever thought about her age when diving into this career pivot. Listen now to find out why she’s proud to be this age! Elaine Appleton Grant is a longtime journalist, writer, and editor who has worked for public radio in Boston and Colorado. She wrote and produced podcast episodes for Wondery’s “Business Wars Daily” and the “Tulsa Race Massacre” episodes for “American History Tellers.” A few years ago, at the age of 57 she started her podcast production company, Podcast Allies, where they consult produce and train podcasters. Elaine just launched her own podcast called “Sound Judgment” where she interviews some of the best podcast hosts and producers in the business to better understand how to make compelling content and tell good stories. Sound Judgment Podcast Podcast Allies @podcastallies @iamthisage_podcast Transript: I read on a James Claire Instagram post. James Claire is an author in habit building. If you don't yet know him, that technically speaking, one is only qualified to do what one has already done. And so anything new is always accomplished by unqualified people. And this made me feel. Relieved, empowered, and a little confused. We all know that most companies looking for new hires have required qualifications, meaning to be considered, you have to have already done the specific job and usually for a substantial amount of time at a similar type of company. So if you are the person trying to do something new, which by Claire's definition makes you technically unqualified, But you've also put the time and the work into learning as much about this new thing as you can without having actually performed the thing at a quote qualifying company. It's really hard to be seriously considered as qualified. In other words, you're probably not getting that job. So what do we do if we're changing careers? What happens when we've dedicated all of our time to learning something new? We've solidified our passion for it. We've honed the craft, but we haven't had the opportunity to prove our capability at a qualifying company. Does it cost companies too much time and money to train these, quote unqualified or might their passion, courage, and dedication to learning new things, prove some other measurement of competency? How do we know which one is of greater value? I'm not suggesting hiring a newbie for a leadership role. I'm not actually suggesting anything at all because I don't know the answer. I'm just wondering how do you really know if someone is fit for a job and what would it cost to reconsider qualification requirements? Hello and welcome back to a very special bonus episode of I Am This Age a podcast proving it's never too late. You are never too old. So go do that thing you're always talking about. I'm Molly Cider, and this is part two with Elaine Appleton Grants Last week, Elaine Gracious. Lee and Bravely opened up about her past relationship and what it's like to be in her new marriage, and today we get into Elaine's career shift from working at Wondering the podcast Network to starting her own podcast production company, her very first venture in owning a business, and at the age of 57. If you haven't yet listened to part one, I suggest you go back right now and listen to that first. And now please enjoy part two of Elaine Appleton. Grant, around the same time that your marriage, your previous marriage was, um, ending, you had been working at the public radio station and you lost your job, right? I did. Um, it wasn't quite at that same time. It was a couple years later. It was, uh, middle of 2015 and I was dealing with a lot of, Kid issues and like some really serious stuff. And there were politics at the station. And ultimately I lost my job, which was devastating because my identity was very wrapped up in being a journalist and working in public radio. And I loved what I was doing. Uh, and I'd already been through so much in the last couple years that it was one more blow. and it really did that really did a number on my self worth for a long time. And, but what it led me to do, well first I went back to freelancing. I had been a freelance journalist several times over the course of my career. So it was what I knew to do and I, um, I got a client pretty quickly to do a podcast. So my. Podcast development. And that was starting in 20 15, 20 16. And then in 2019, you know, this sort of melange of different kind of journalistic activities, podcasting, book editing, writing, and, and I did, I had a great podcasting gig that I got in 2018 and did for two and a half years at Wondery, which is, um, now owned by Amazon. Um, it's, you know, one of the biggest, I didn't realize it's owned by Amazon podcasting platform. It is. They, they were bought by Amazon while I was doing a daily podcast for Wondery writing and producing. Um, a friend of mine asked me if I would start a company with her, and it, it took me a while to convince me, but we did start at podcast Allies in, um, Early 2019. And you started this at the age of 57? Yeah. Yeah. I was 57 and my partner was 57. You had been working in this industry for, you know, your whole career Yeah. In some way, shape, or form. Um, but you never worked for yourself before? Well, I had, I mean, I've freelanced a lot, right? But I hadn't started a production company. It does take a while when you have freelanced. It's hard to shift from the mindset of I'm a freelancer to, I'm running a company. You know, it's, it's a different, it's a different mindset, and I would say I'm still on that evolution, even though I'm working. I, I don't employ a lot of people, but I employ a lot of subcontractors. But I cut you off because you're about to actually ask a question. I'm sorry. Um, I was just going to ask, starting this company, what are the doubts? What are the insecurities about running your own business? Well, first I have to say neither my partner at the time, Lindsay or I ever talked about how old we were, it just simply didn't occur to us. It still mostly doesn't occur to me. I mean, every now and then, you know, wrinkles, , talking to whatever, talking to me, um, talking to you. Cause we're talking about it and I don't usually say, Oh, and by the way, here's my age, you know, I really don't. Um, so thanks for pushing me because I'm always. Pushing podcasters to be more vulnerable and candid. This is about the most vulnerable and candid I've ever been on a podcast, by the way. Oh wow. Thank you. Yeah, I hope it's useful to somebody. I'd be curious to know what you think about that, but We'll, we'll get back to that in a minute. Um, What did I worry about? Yeah, And still. And still. Yeah. I mean at the time, you know, we were just trying to figure out like what would this company be and what would it do because there's a million different things you can do in the podcasting industry. I certainly worried about time balance because when we started it, I was working 20 or more hours a week for wondering producing business worth daily. over time there have been different worries. There were worries that we both had, Lindsay and I, that we had a lot of the same skills, but we were missing some of the same skills. And I think maybe a partnership works better when you have very different skills that you can bring together. And so we had a lot of fun. We could talk for hours about storytelling and development of content and things like that. But when it came to the business side, it was tougher. We had different energies, different rhythms, different amounts of time, different things that we're pulling at our time. Uh, so mm-hmm. , you know, partnerships are, I'm, I'm forever grateful because without Lindsay, I would not have started podcast allies. It was her idea, and she's brilliant and sweet. . What happened with that was that she got C and she got it badly and she was out for about three months and, you know, it was very serious in her case. Scary, serious. And, and when she came back, she said, You know, I, I just don't wanna, Life is short. I don't wanna spend my time this way. and so I bought her out last year. Uh, and we're still friends, but partnerships are hard. I don't remember what the statistics are. I used to work for Ink Magazine, so I covered entrepreneurship and so I've always loved looking at it, watching it, but being one is very different and I think the statistics on partnerships lasting are not ideal. You know, they can be amazing. Um, and there were many times when I was like, Oh, thank God I've got somebody to ask about this. What, what should I do? Will you take a look at this? And vice versa. Um, and we, you know, we managed different projects sometimes and that was really, really helpful. Our, our company has evolved. Based on demand. So like we started out thinking we were gonna train people on how to make podcasts, good quality NPR worthy podcasts, which I still do. But very quickly we got our first production client and a big one, and we didn't even know we were gonna be a production company. So I think that happens and, and you know, so my worry now my, some of my worries are the same. It's how on earth do I manage. It's very exhilarating to have the company grow and there's gotta be a way to manage it. So I'm not working all the time. I'm figured out. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, one second. And this is when I went into a coughing fit and I lost my voice. And so Elaine and I decided to reconvene a few weeks later to finish the interview, which you will hear right now. How are you? Um, I'm great. My voice is back . Oh, that's really, I'm feeling well. Yeah. What did you have? I don't know, but I ended up having to go on like a very high dose of, um, antibiotics, which I don't love to do, but within a few hours I was already feeling better. But, um, I don't, I don't know what it was. It was some sort of infection in my throat. Well, I'm glad you're right. Thank you. Me too. So anyway, we left off. Talking about like all the hard stuff that goes into starting your own company. How long did it take you and your former partner to get the company going? Like from the moment she brought you the idea to the day that you got your first client? It's, it was not that simple because from the moment she brought me the idea, it took me at least a year to decide to say yes. Okay. Because I already. Other work and another business going. And so it was messy. I was like, Oh my God. Two sets of taxes and all that kind of stuff. And, um, but finally, and I can't tell you what it is that made me decide to say yes, but I finally said yes and, uh, Oh, gosh. It's hard to remember because we really started it very part-time. And so when we decided to actually do something at all, uh, what we decided to do was hold a workshop and, and it was so busy. There was always some reason why we couldn't do it now, and we couldn't do it now, and we couldn't do it now. And so finally we just, we, I remember it was January and we picked a date in February. We found a venue. We went to see them. We worked at a deal and we got this workshop going in three weeks. We didn't have a website, we had nothing. And, um, we probably got business cards. You know, we, we did everything that, that we needed to do to get this workshop going and, We even created an upsell from the workshop and I think we had maybe eight people there, which was fine. I mean, we were just trying to do something to get it off the ground, something small, and uh, and it worked really well. You know, we got a coaching client from it. We got some other smaller upsell things from it, and. Just doing a tiny bit of promotion about it. I have to remember, this was in early 2019, so the podcasting world was a little different then. Um, somebody reached out to us from a big company and said, We're. Gonna do a podcast and can you come in and talk to us? And so we did talk to them. I don't know that we ever got to a proposal stage. I think they didn't really know what they were doing and they had personnel changes, so we didn't actually get that client. But just that kind of interest was like, Oh, that's interesting. Hmm. We, we thought we were gonna be a training company. We never thought we were gonna be a production company. I think I probably told you that. And at the same time, you know, I was doing a ton of work for Wondery. I think I had mentioned that. Mm-hmm. , I, um, had a regular, you know, daily show that I was writing and producing business War Daily, and it was before the hundredth anniversary and commemoration, I should say. And, um, it took. It was like six or eight weeks nonstop. I mean, between that and business worth Daily, I was working seven days a week, just constantly. I had very little time for podcast allies, but I went to Tulsa in April, so this is a couple months after that workshop. And while I was there reporting, I got a message. From, you know, somebody had been following me on LinkedIn who I'd known for 20 years, but I wasn't in touch with saying, My client is looking for a presentation on podcasting. Can you talk to her? And, uh, so I took like, just a little bit of time out and I talked to this woman and she turned out to be the global head of communications for the Environmental Defense Fund. Wow. And yeah, and, um, and so we wound up doing, Just an hour long presentation for them, but it was for their PR retreat. So they had all of their comms people, which is like 50 people in different parts of the country and some overseas, I think. And so we did this and we got a call from one of the people. Shortly after that saying, We loved your presentation. Uh, we were doing a podcast based on what you said. We've stopped it. We wanna redo it entirely, and we wanna hire you guys. And wow. We were like, behind the scenes are like, but, but, but we weren't, this wasn't our business, you know, Like we didn't know what we were doing. And, um, but they were very persuasive. And, uh, so they are, you know, they're our flagship client. So we just launched our fourth season on September 7th. Oh. And yeah, so that was about three years ago. And um, and that just changed our business. Entirely. Uh, so it was an evolution and it's not, you know, it's absolutely not a straight line from idea to a first client because it took me a long time to wind down my wondery work. It was tough, but it was good to do that. Yeah, I was just gonna ask, do you think that that was, it was helpful for you to have the wonder? Well, I mean, for one thing, it. Much steadier income. Secondly, we were brand new and we had to generate enough income to pay both of us. So it was very bumpy, you know, cash flow and it still is, but I think it, you know, I mean, it was security. Wondery is a wonderful company. I loved the work that I was doing. I loved the people I was working with. I had great opportunities like doing the American History Teller series and working on an American scandal, and it gave, you know, it added to our credibility. So there were a lot of, a lot of good reasons to do it. And then eventually, you know, some good reasons to stop. What have been the hardest parts for you, and what does hard look like for you? Like, . Like for example, do you get angry or apathetic or do you take a day off? Do you hide under your covers? Do you work even harder? Like, what is it? I don't hide under the covers. That's just not who I am. Um, sometimes I get grouchy if I get tired and I have to watch. I don't get, you know, I. Careful. Um, mostly my grouchiness comes out to me, or certainly my husband is aware of it, even though I try very hard not to let it spill over on him. But I can get tired, I can get frustrated when, you know, when you are, when you're making anything that communicates somebody else's story, whether it's a big organization or a smaller one or whatever. there are a lot of people involved and there's approval cycles and things like that, and that can, Well, I'll just put it this way. Yesterday I was frustrated and I posted a picture of a camel on my Facebook page and said, just simply, , this is an, this is a horse that was designed by a committee. You know, like that's That can be hard when you're a creative type and you just wanna create, you know? Yeah. It's, you get so busy with all the, what I call it, the ings, the administering and the budgeting and the planning and the scheduling and the herding of cats and, you know, um, so it's, it's nice. To have something creative of my own to work on. So I'm launching a podcast called Sound Judgment. Did I tell you about that? Um, you had told me that you were working on your own podcast, and actually I was gonna ask you about it. So I just launched a newsletter called Sound Judgment, the newsletter, all about creative choices in audio storytelling. By the time this releases, I will have launched sound Judgment, the podcast. And sound judgment addresses the question that probably plague us all, which is what does it take to become a beloved podcast host? And I personally am not answering this question alone, not by a long shot. So what I am doing is I'm bringing. Great podcast hosts onto the show, and together we are dissecting a single episode of their show and looking at the creative choices they made for this particular episode, we'll play some passages. We really break it down and dissect it because I think that's the most fun way to learn is learning. How somebody else did something that you think is really cool. Yeah. And that's really cool. Thank you. I'm very excited about it. Super excited about it. Yeah. Uh, thank you. It's gonna be so helpful for me. can't wait to listen. This is what I've been needing and waiting for. Oh, good. But you didn't know it, but I didn't even know it . Um, no. I just like, I just, I'm constantly listening to other interview type shows. Thinking like what are they doing and why did they ask that and how can I ask that? That's how we learn though, right? As you listen to other shows and you go, Oh, I don't like that. Oh, I love that. What were they doing? You know, What's going on there? Yeah. And it is so fun to talk to hosts. Oh, it does. And I'll probably talk to some producers as well, um, because the show will feature, you know, people who have narrative podcasts, interviews, shows, and people. Great indie podcasts. I'm not differentiating. It's all about like what's great and so can I ask you a question? Yeah. Do you have a podcast or two that you love, especially where you love the host? So many. Um, tell me your dream guest. Tell me your dream guest for sound judgment. I'm a big armchair expert fan deck. She. I think that that was a big, he was a big influence on me starting this podcast. I love the way that he interviews. I think he's so smart and there's so much vulnerability on that show. And then I also love how I built this. Oh yeah. Who doesn't love Gera? He's the best. I'm definitely influenced a lot by IRA and how I built this. Actually. I can hear that. Because you're asking, you know, feeling questions, which Yeah. Often, especially working with organizations, they just. You know, they fill up all the time with process questions. Mm-hmm. , how did you do this? Why did you do that? But not like, but how did it feel when it didn't work? Or you had to push through? Or how did it feel when it did work? You know, or Yeah. And, and those are the questions that where you really get to the human being. Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's the stuff that's helpful for me because, . Yeah. It's the, the, the doing of the tasks and stuff is like, okay, like you can just read how to do that. But what about all the internal blocks? , What about the, like for me, when I'm feeling like scared or frustrated or like, what am I doing? This is never gonna work. I need to get up and walk away and like do something else. Or, you know, I have days where I feel apathetic and I have days where I'm like, Nah, I got this. This is like that. I think a pretty normal progression. But if we don't talk about that, then you know, people might never start anything or try anything new because they don't know that those are normal feelings. And so that's what I'm sort of trying to get to get to the bottom of. Yeah, no, that's totally normal. And and thank you for, for saying that. I definitely have times where I just have to get up and walk away or I'm, you know, I, I have all of those feelings. I do think it's part. Having a creative life and, um, yeah, who knows? Maybe it's a part of everybody's life and, uh, you know, so I've, I've found some positive ways of dealing with that. You know, a lot of yoga, a lot of outdoor activity, and, um, like. If I don't get enough exercise, I'm not nice to be around. Uh, and you know, probably somewhat less positive. Like, you know, there's those nights where it's just like, give me a glass of wine. Don't make me decide what to have for dinner, and let's watch Netflix. And I'm just gonna deal with this in the morning. That sounds right. . Was that reassuring? I didn't wanna sound like, you know, I'm not, I'm not an aunt, I just don't keep working, working, working all the time. Although some days it feels that way. , how did your experience leaving your previous marriage and then finding a new relationship, how did that influence, or how has that influenced how you approached starting this company and how you handle all the hurdles? all the things. Wow. What a cool question that is. I'm not sure anybody's ever asked me that. That is a really good question. She said buying time. Um, , It's a deep question. Yeah, it's a thinker. You know, something happened just two days ago, which sort of brought me up short and like I said, I was tired and grouchy that day anyway. And that was, I got a Facebook memory. Of a post that I made 10 years ago that day that simply said, we're finally on the road. And what that meant was my former husband and my son, who was then 10 and I were, had left our home in New Hampshire and we're driving across country to move to Colorado. And I was sort of blown away. I was like, Wow. How often do you get the opportunity to go? I know the exact day. Here's an anniversary of when my life changed dramatically in every single way. Right. I think, I think there are a couple of answers to your question though. One is that I had, you know, done a lot of freelancing before. So I was used to being on my own. But that's different than starting a company. It really is. It's very different. And, um, this is a much bigger venture and it's more exciting and the possibilities are greater. I don't think I could have done this had I not gone through this whole experience. With leaving that marriage and then eventually, you know, learning, getting through a lot of challenges and then finding, my husband likes to say our home should be a sanctuary, that anyone's home is a sanctuary. Well, I can tell you , my last home was not a sanctuary. In fact, uh, what I came to believe was that you have to feel safe in your own personal life in order to take big risks. That's not always true. I mean, look at, you know, Cheryl Stray and Wild, She obviously wasn't feeling safe. She took a big risk for a different reason. But many of us need to feel safe to take big risks, and I had that. I'd gotten to a place where I largely felt very supported. Like I had a safe space. I didn't feel so safe financially that I was ready to just, you know, jump outta one thing and jump into the next without knowing it. That's why I, you know, a big part of why I kept the other work going. Um, but, but that was, I'm grateful for that every day. I think the other thing is, I hated losing my job. It was awful. Yeah. But now I look back on it and say Thank heavens, because I'm getting to do all this really cool stuff that I really believe in. That is creative and yeah, it's challenging, but jobs are challenging and, um, I might not have done that, and I know I can get through the hard stuff. That's partly just being, because you have old . No experience. I've had a few bumps in the road Experienced, Yes. Yeah. Had a few bumps in the road and got through. Yeah, and it is nice. I can, you know, We have this great PR person working with us and she just turned 30 and she was like, What do I do in my thirties? How do I make sure it's, you know, like, is it gonna be better than twenties? And I've gotta get a lot accomplished before I turn 30 in two days. And I was like, You got time, You got loads of time. And by the way, it gets better. It gets way better. Yeah. It gets way better. There's something about, I don't know, uh, feeling more comfortable in your own skin as you get older. Mm-hmm. , I feel very comfortable in my own skin most of the time. Not always, most of the time. Yeah. In a way that I didn't before. It's fun. Speaking of that, um, you had mentioned that you had never really considered your age when starting the new company, and I'm just curious. Why do you think that is? I just didn't feel it. Hmm. I I just didn't, I think I've just never really felt it except for like, you know, those times when you're sick or you know, you go, Oh, you know, there's an acre pain that, where'd that come from? Um, I don't know. I, um, maybe it's, maybe it's subconscious or something, but, My father didn't stop working until he was in his seventies and he had his own business. I think it just didn't occur to him. You know, it's like, well, why? You know? Um, but I had a stepmother, I, I think I might have mentioned her because she was a huge role model for me. She was dearly, dearly, beloved. Uh, her name was hat. It was short for Harriet, and she died when she was 97. Wow. She probably did yoga up until the time she was 95. Amazing. She lived alone till she was 94 and she was the most enthusiastic, outgoing, happy person until maybe the last year, year and a half. And, um, she just made you feel like you were the only one in the room when you saw her. You know, like just that you had made her day and. And she was, you know, she was one of the, she was in the very first class of women to graduate with what was essentially an MBA from Harvard. It was called the Radcliffe Institute of Management. And so it was, Radcliffe was at the time, the Women's College of Harvard, and uh, she was probably 28, 29 or something. and you know, she was just this dynamo. She just didn't think about like, this can't be done. And so I don't know, maybe I just absorbed that or something, but I just, honestly I never thought of it. Now I think of it . I making you think of it. Well, yeah. Or I'll go to a conference and like everybody, 35 or younger. Yeah. You know, and so I kind of wonder sometimes, like, do they look at me and think like, what are you doing here? Uh, I hope not , but does that do anything? Does that stop you? Does that make you question anything? Or what happens? Uh, you know, on a bad day? Yeah. On a bad day. . Yeah. Cause you, you know, you always wanna be sort of part of the cool Kids club . It's hard to do that. Absolutely. We all wanna belong. We all wanna belong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, there's also plenty of women in this industry who are my age and doing really great stuff and much bigger stuff that I am. And. . And so of course I spend time with them and um, or just admire them from an, from afar and try to learn from them and yeah. Uh, so it's not, you know, it's not like I'm the only one on a desert island. Right. Of course, , of course, you're not so on a good day, you just focus on. I don't even think about it on a good day, on a good day, I'm just thinking about the work. Okay. I have one last question for you and then you can go. What has, what do you think all this life experience has taught you about yourself Lately, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the state of the world, the state of the country, which in my view is, you know, just frightening and wrong in so many ways. And, um, for years. When I was younger, I, I sort of felt career wise, like I was a square peg in a round hole. I was using skills that I was good at, but I wasn't satisfying my heart. And, you know, I, I was an editor at a computer trade magazine. I was using the skills, but I didn't care about the content and I felt like there was so much. To fix in the world, but that I hadn't been trained to do that or I didn't know what to do. It was sort of an existential crisis. And, um, over the last six months year, I have really, really embraced that I have a very particular point of view, and it's a progressive point of view politically and. I decided, and it was scary that that's, those are our clients. And not that you have to be about politics at all, but that I am, our niche is to work with people who wanna make the world a better place. Yeah. . I no longer feel like a square peg in a round hole. I feel like I finally am getting to do exactly what I'm meant to be doing, and I never thought that would happen. And I think the lesson is I could have done it years ago, but I didn't know. I don't know how I would've. Earlier, because when I look back on the work that I've been doing for years, I've always said this about myself, but I didn't sort of make it clear to myself or to anybody else. And, and I think that's an element of bravery. You know, it's like, it's a, as a business person, it's hard to say, These clients are for me, and if you're with me, great. I will serve you a thousand. And you, I think you should find somebody else. You know? I can't serve you well, so I get to learn stuff that I care about every single day. It's really cool. That's so cool. Very, very lucky. Yeah. That's so cool. Congratulations on that. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Um, okay. Where can people find you if they want to make a podcast with you or if they want your coaching? Oh, thank you. It is Podcast Allies, A L L I E s.com. And as I mentioned, we have a new newsletter, so the signups on the website and we have a new podcast. Called sound judgment. And that will be on, you can find that on all the normal podcast apps and I hope that you'll listen to it and subscribe. Everyone tune in. I will be for sure. . I can't wait. Oh, thank you Molly. You're a very good interviewer. Oh, thank you for asking all these great questions. Um, thank you. That's a huge compliment coming from you and thank you for answering all of them. I know a lot of them are not easy. I really appreciate it. That's what makes them interesting. . Great. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. Great. Thank you so much and um, I hope we stay in touch. Thank you to David Ben Perrot for sound engineering. David Harper, the artwork. I'm Molly Cider, your host. I am. This Age is produced by Jellyfish Industries. Thanks for coming and catch you all next time.

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Oct 23 · 30m Part 1 - From Struggling in One Marriage to Happy in Another: Elaine Appleton Grant, 60

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Oct 9 · 0 We're Coming Back October 23rd!

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Jun 19 · 46m From Hollywood Screenwriter to Corporate Speech Writer: Melissa Sadoff Oren, Age 44

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I Am This Age Jun 5 · 57m From Highschool Dropout to Entrepreneur: Brandi Covington, Age 43

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May 22 · 30m From College Professor to EPA Ecologist: Audrey Mayer, Age 49

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May 8 · 46m From USPS Management to Tech CEO: Kimberly Evans, Age 57

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Apr 24 · 51m From Tech Exec to Published Poet: Neelam Patel, Age 47

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Apr 10 · 47m From Corporate America to Love Coach: Illa Lynn, Age 42

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Mar 27 · 1h 2m From History Professor to Environmental Lawyer: Louise Dyble, Age 49

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I Am This Age Mar 13 · 39m From Single to Married: Jen & Joe Campagna, Ages 47 & 48

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Feb 27 · 48m From Trying to Fit In to Embracing Her Weird: Shelley Brown, Age 58

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Feb 13 · 52m From Ordained Minister to Landscape Design: Lola Wright, Age 43

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Jan 30 · 48m From the First 50 Years Being Great to Making the Second 50 The Best Ever: Thom Singer, Age 55

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Sep 19 · 1h 19m From Prison to Best Selling Author: Craig Stanland, Age 48

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