Welcome back everyone. I am Rob McCollum one of the producers and director of 1865. Joining is always our Stephen Walters and Erica chili for this Inside. The episode of episode 4 of season 2 Guys. Welcome. Hey Rob. So as Eric said, in a previous Inside the episode we have untied the knot. Now, we have gone through the prologue episodes to fill in some of the gaps. Now. We are here is the beginning of a full season Tuesday if you happen to be here. Yeah, very happy, very excited. So what do we learn in this episode? We meet several new characters. We learned some new Intrigue, some new developments along the way. First, of course, we realized that Grant has won the presidency. Yeah, we jump some time there. Yeah. We did. You know what I mean? That's great. I think for our listeners is that they just heard
The American elections, Wicked Game episode on the election of 1868, which provided some contacts. I hope for them. But we decided is the story of of Grants Journey, really begins after he's elected. You know, we have all of these crazy events that happened politically where Andrew Johnson's party. Of course, we get into this a little bit in this episode but his party turns against him they don't nominate him in at the convention he's disgraced from the impeachment. And on the Republican side, Grant is sort of swept into the presidency. It's really on the ballot in 1868. Is this question of what's going to happen to the freedmen? On the Democrats side of their opinion is pretty clear. They say this is a white man's government that white men Rule. And on the Republican side, you have Grant saying let us have peace to these two very, very contrasting, messages Collide in an election where Grant sweeps and he wins if he wins Big And We Begin the story with this event that a lot of people don't know about which is it a General Grant's train was I suppose.
It's a attacks in the aftermath of the election. We talked a lot about maybe trying to dramatize that, that could be fun from an audio standpoints to have a train derailment with all the sounds and everything. But really Grant was so committed to it being a non-issue that you kind of let that guy the story, right yet? Wanted it to be such a non-issue that no one ever heard about it. They kind of covered it up and and didn't talk about the fact that this happened. Yeah, that's right. Grant did not want people to know about what happened and there's not a lot of information out there about what happened, as a result of it. Grant wanted to stay silent Aid, Adam do who wrote Grant's personal Memoirs and also wrote a book called Grant and peace for mathematics to mount McGregor. He writes about it. He said, Grant himself in joined silence in regard to the circumstance and his companions, were very willing to comply, and this is a piece that we used in our dramatization of it. For crime is contagious into an ounce one, attempt like this is to suggest another
And in that, that book granting piece you can read Adam bedoes account of what happened that night when the Train derailed. I've always said and I think I said this in the 1868 election that I wrote it's not hard to imagine that whoever was responsible for leaving the switch open and but do is clear in his writings of it, that he believed it was intentional. It's not hard to imagine. Whoever that person was had either sympathy for or a direct connection to the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or at the very least, it's not hard to imagine that Edwin Stanton would have thought as much. Although, we don't really know the election of 68 is the first time that we see the clan and really, as an organization that they are active and politically active, right? I mean, you know, they began is a social club for former former Confederate officers and they sort of evolved into this paramilitary organization with some political aims. They expand they get more and more organized more prolific and violence against the freedmen at the pole.
1868 was was pretty severe. But in spite of that millions of freedmen, step forward, and cast a ballot for the first time in American history, shifted, the estate houses, and the Senate and the Congress very, very strongly for republicans in this election that, you know, just not so many years after John Wilkes Booth assassinated Abraham, Lincoln that General. Grant strain turned upside down on its belly and that he was nearly killed on his way to the White House and as it relates to our story and I are sort of imagination of these events I think it it puts Edwin Stanton and its unique position to have him questioning you know he knows it's an attack and it's it's kind of a echo of last season in his reactions to that because you know we don't know a whole lot about what Stanton was doing during this time post-impeachment time. And we know he campaigned
Philly for Grant, particularly in Ohio, you made some pretty significant speeches on his behalf. And, you know, we have him say, I think that he delivered Ohio that may be an overstatement but not not hard to imagine the dancing might have believed that that was true. We know that he was with Grant and Grant found out that he had been nominated for the Republican nomination, but we don't know too much about it. But I really enjoyed this idea. What was what, what is Edwin Stanton? Like, when he doesn't have any actual power, I really enjoy the scenery, he's just hanging out in the apartment and giving everyone invited what they should be doing when he doesn't work there anymore. And I think it's Babcock says, you don't work here anymore and I thought I would just enjoy this this sort of fantasy, but again, there's not much of a historical record to tell us what Stanton was up to. During this particular, this particular time we get a check in, with the, with Stanton, we hear Grant, as he's taking his office and we also then have a check in with the defeated, Andrew Johnson, who is, of course,
Not in the happiest of States as he does this interview with our Intrepid reporter, yes Johnson. The lame-duck was perhaps the lamest of ducks, but he did, he did do some things. I think those things have some some parallels to to our most recent president, for one thing. As I've said before, wielded, his pardon power like a shotgun. He pardoned, all of the remaining Booth conspirators who were alive America, probably know a little bit about the story of dr. Mudd which Alba hand off to you in a second. But the other thing that he did, which I think is worth mentioning is that he did not attend. The inauguration of Ulysses, S Grant and then outgoing president not attending the inauguration of their successor. It only happened two times before that in history. First one being John Adams, with Thomas Jefferson the second time being John, Quincy Adams with Andrew Jackson. And so Andrew Johnson is totally betraying precedent here.
Why not attending? And what we talked about modern parallels. Donald Trump is the first president since Andrew Johnson to not attend the inauguration. Yeah. And I mean, it's just interesting to me, you know, those parallels are pretty hard to ignore and Michael O'Loughlin and net Spangler. And that part was brought on because there was a breakout of yellow fever, all four of them or sit down to dry Tortuga and there was a break out of jail, a fever and Doctor Mudd stepped up and helps the prison kind of weather that that disease breaking out and won himself a pardon from it and Michael Laughlin dinner. So we can posited Sam Arnold in Michael O'Loughlin to be the same O'Loughlin played by Eric Ochoa
But actual historical figure, Michael and Lachlan died of that yellow fever and then dr. Samuel Mudd ended up moving up back to Maryland and actually dead Spangler, which is very strange strange. And we also know that Johnson pardoned Jefferson Davis the president of the Confederacy. And, you know, I think that all of these pardons, you know, Len to the sort of idea that Johnson was, you know, colluding in some way with with the south. I mean, maybe not through official channels of the old confederate government of course that has long since been dismantled, but he was perhaps, you know, the accusations are that he traded bribes for pardons, you know, that he was trying to line his pockets and there was a large impression and Johnson. Certainly thought this was unfair but there was a large impression that he was corrupt and that his was have been one of the most corrupt Administration in American history fair. Or unfair there that there was this public perception that that was true.
Well and of course, Andrew Johnson thinks is unfair and also thinks he is destined for an immediate political comeback as as Cooper is trying to convince him not to talk about. Yeah. This is one of the things that I found did my research on Edmund Cooper, there's not a lot out there about Edmund Cooper, not at least that I've been able to find, but I did come upon this story about Edmund, Cooper, kind of betraying Andrew Johnson after he was his sort of right-hand man and his sword and shield throughout the impeachment process. Take I Came Upon This. I thought it was fascinating and I wanted to figure out a way to put it in there because the theme of betrayal is going to be such a big part of what this season is about, and that will play itself out in so many different ways that I wanted to have a Johnson side of the story of personal betrayal. There's a quote, I think that appears in the third prologue episode. Where Johnson says, you know, Hamilton had Burr. Washington had Benedict, Arnold Andrew, Johnson has Ulysses S Grant. Well, that's a real Johnson quote except
Actually said was Washington, had Benedict Arnold Hamilton had burn, Andrew Johnson has Edmund Cooper and that's because Cooper really did betray Johnson. Johnson wanted to to run for office and Al kooper sort of undercut him and at the convention brought forth his own candidate and that was his brother Henry. But this is a great time to Segway though. I think to one of our other new characters named Thurman Thurman actually a Democrat from the north, which we kind of introduced. At this time, he's taking over the seat of Benjamin Wade. Benjamin Wade, is the person who would have taken over if Johnson's impeachment had one, if they had been able to pass it and remove Johnson. And a lot of people did not, like, Benjamin way, because he was a radical republican, and he was very radical. And a lot of lot of these senators were not comfortable with him taking over in Johnson's place, but we see that Benjamin Wade has lost his election and now has been replaced by a Democrat. So this is kind of the transition out.
The Radical Republicans, we see them kind of slip into the background and a new form of the Republican Party emerges, and all of that. Is that the political Sands or shifting a little bit, right? It's like Benjamin Wade, is voted out replaced by a northern Democrat or radical republican replaced by a northern Democrat, probably because he was a radical republican. And the slightest idea that the sort of the northern white population is going to grow weary of this reconstruction fight. And this is, I think, historically pretty accurate did over the course of the next decade. They they start to have morals of Teague about it in a way that we lost. As we saw in the the last episode that he's Stevens, who was one of those Pinnacles of The Radical Republicans. So you have Benjamin wait, being voted out, you have fatty Stevens passing away. And of course in this episode, we we say goodbye to Edwin Stanton as well. And so a lot of the great champions of the cause you were in the halls of Power are are slipping away.
Well, I want to spend some more time talking about Stanton last few scenes, but before we get there, there's a few of the people that we meet, we meet Babcock. Who is kind of the chief of staff? Not necessarily a name, but in, in, in service to to Grant and we will we will spend some time with him. In this episode has a big part to play in season 2 and I don't want to get too much into it cuz I don't want to give anything away. But after those out there who are a history nerd, and who loves to look up, historical facts, look up for Bill Babcock, and you'll learn a little bit about what's coming. You know, Babcock is someone that Grant trust implicitly. They are close friends colleagues and allies and former military men together. And their relationship is going to play a big part, not only in our story, but it does play a big part in the historical consequences of of Grants time in the White House. Whether it's Stanton act to come in and give him the news about this affair, that he's uncovered when we eat when we hear how bad Stanton's Health really has become it is
Is to inform him about Babcock if he's coming to talk. Yeah, and you know that the affair is real or at least the alleged Affair is real Stanton's role. In revealing it to Grant. Is that is our Fiction made that up, but it's because we wanted to sort of raised, the Spectre of Babcock being an imperfect man and we wanted to do it early and I think it's gets into one of the things that's the most interesting about General Grant. He's a man who's known for being honest. And yet somehow this ties back to the Andrew Johnson conversation, we just had but somehow this man is known for being honest because his name literally grantism become synonymous with corruption. That's also going to be a big part of what happens during the second season. And of course as is always the case in American history, it's going to be the freedmen in the Native American population in the disenfranchised and disadvantage that are going to pay the price for some of these personal foibles and it always centers around money. That's right. So standing goes to Babcock.
And tries to plead with him, you know, to take some active steps to protect the president. And we get a sense of that kind of guilt of what happened to the president. Under his watch that he appeals to Babcock and then as I understand, it Babcock immediately goes and tells the president that did. He's coming. Done this right? He flips on it. Yeah, this is, again, a piece of fiction. This is not historically, true. It is true. That Grant wanted to know guns policy and it is true that he did not want to look like a military dictator. And he didn't want the guns around in this is mrs. Grants, and the first lady in this family, I'm all that's true, but we sort of, we wanted to have dancing and playing the part of suits are a little bit here. There's also a lot of course, another Julius Caesar reference. That did Andrew Johnson makes, which is beware the Ides of March but you know, and it's getting into the Betrayal theme. That is such a big part of the season, but yeah. So we can go to have as many betrayals as we possibly could find. And we also wanted to eat up to the kind of tea up. The idea that, you know, Stanton's Sands have nearly run and Santa.
Story is nearly over. He's trying still to the to the to The Bitter End which is I think very true to who Stanton was to do the right thing but likes to noise does when he tries to do the right thing. Usually doesn't they're all the way with his foot in his mouth, but he is still, nevertheless offered a seat on the Supreme Court which is you know, as as the character says in the episode that the highest goal of his life. Yeah, there's a line where you do Grant says, I don't need a campaign manager but I imagine the freedmen could use a friend in the highest court in the land. I have Stanton reply, it is the only public office I have ever truly desired. I would accept it with great pleasure, which is a real Stanton quote did, Eric, you uncovered some really, really powerful tragic, correspondences from this period of Stanton's life through basically, once once he left office, he stepped away for a little while and and actually, recuperated a little bit and his health picked up and that's
He was campaigning for Grants and but then his health took another dive and the others. This really tragic letter. You wrote to a friend. He says my dear friend contrary to my, I hope when I saw you last, my health was not restored so that I could engage in business for a livelihood. My strength rapidly declined in the summer, and with reluctance, I was compelled to leave home. I am entirely out of money traveling, educating and providing for my children and other necessary, expenditures. I have quite exhausted. My last Winter's Supply furnished by Mr. Witz kindness. So that I'm compelled to apply to you for Aid. So he's like, asking his friend for money because he's totally broke and, you know, is proud of Stanton was how hard this letter must have been. Yeah. And it's also it also points to something else about Stanton. It's true which is that I think he did love him or hate him and I think people who know history of really strong feelings about him, one way or the other, but he soccer.
Why is everything this last line? He says, please let me know whether you can help me or not $5,000 would carry me through to another year even less would drive the wolf from the door with kindest regards to you and Mrs. Watson of the children I remained ever yours Edwin Stanton and that's what the last letters he wrote. So he's got no literally no friends left no income, no no chances until Grant extends the solidly. This was the office that he wanted and fought for his entire life and when he finally gets it, he's too sick to to sit on the bench and he passes away before he ever gets a chance to serve. Well before we get into the passing I do want to say that is as wonderful as your reading of that letter was Eric we do have a lot of huge fans of Edwin Stanton of Jeremy Schwartz, his portrayal of Edwin Stanton and so I just want to let you know that there's some some goodies. For those of you that are patreon subscribers are talk about some of the things. The right way. For those of you that are members of patreon again, that is is as low as 5.
Hours a month, you have access to a lot of bonus material, and one of the bonus series we have is called, in their own words. And so it's the actual letters and speeches of these historical figures. You get to hear their actual words and it's it's really helpful. Because when you're hearing these disgusting words from Andrew Johnson, you can go and hear real speeches for him made the Congress and go oh my gosh, I present actually said Congress but with Stanton if you need that Jeremy Schwartz fixed now that Stanton is gone there, still lots more Stanton. Jeremy Schwartz sexy voice to hear even in these moments of Despair. I do want to say this though, for everyone who is a die-hard Jeremy Schwartz fan. Like like I know we all are Edwin Stanton is coming back, not just in the bonus content and in the inside the words, but he's coming back to the story, I can't say much more than that. But what I can tell you is that as we move to the next chapter of the story, we're going to get outside of the halls of power and get out into the world of of the 1860s, in the 18.
Davines. We're going to see what the impact of some of these political decisions are to some of the folks on the ground. Well, I know what's the comment? I cannot wait for all of you listeners to get to hear that again. I encourage you to check out a page on a page and listen to some of those letters read in the words of of Jeremy and some of the amazing actors that we have, but so much more Intrigue, so many more new characters to introduce, in the season, that is to come. So, thank you, Eric. And Steve for joining me for this, Inside the episode. Thank all of you for listening and come back and listen to the next episode Inside the episode eighteen. Sixty-five. Be sure to follow us on Twitter and Facebook at 1865 podcast for more inside information and true history from the show. Also, if you really love the show and you want to help us out, please become a patron at patreon.com 1865, podcast members there, get exclusive content, Early, Access ad free listening, so much fun stuff. As always were trying to find new ways to get back to our Patron community. So become a member yourself at patreon.
Tom / 1865 podcast. Thank you for listening 1865. Is an Airship production. This episode was hosted by me. Rob McCollum produced by Erica. Chilla theme music by Lindsey Graham, be sure to tune in for the next episode of inside the episode 1865.
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